What to do, potential criminal charges.

[promac]

Injury and/or death is different from legal jeopardy. Find a court case where an impaired driver was able to sue for legal costs associated with his being charged for impaired driving. I don't think you'll be successful.

Maybe not, but I wouldn't hold my breath - especially these days. But what really, is the difference? It's only a matter of time until someone is successful. Someone once told me, "Never bet against progress.". It's not that I particularly agree with the direction it's going, but it is what it is. I certainly think twice about serving guests alcohol now.

I'm sure some sorry SOB said the same thing some time ago about being responsible for a third party's injury or death.

 

[turbodish]

Let's take the theft of the purse out of things for a moment.

There are literally tens of thousands of drivers charged with impaired driving every year in Canada. Many of them can lay their impairment at the feet of the restaurants and bars that served them prior to them getting into the car to drive home.

Surely, by your reasoning, the bar is responsible for them getting into a state where they could be charged with impaired driving and for any repercussions that befall them as a result of that impairment. So where is the rash of bars being held liable for the costs of criminal defence, license suspensions, fines, towing and vehicle impounds suffered by those convicted of impaired driving after being over-served?

Now, let's bring the theft of the purse back into it. How is the criminal act of theft while drunk any different from the criminal act of driving while drunk? Why would you expect the bar should be held liable because someone stole after having a few drinks?

 

[promac]

Perhaps no ones thought about doing that yet. The idea is a little perverse and out there if you think about it. But why not? Why does society blame the gun and the gun manufacturer/retailer and not hold the perpetrator fully accountable?

 

[nobbie48]

Why does society blame the gun and the gun manufacturer/retailer and not hold the perpetrator fully accountable?

Actually the above depends on whether you belong to the NRA or not.

 

[Starchild]

If a patron pays with a credit card, you "might" see a tip amount on the credit card slip that is filled in and signed by the customer, but a patron paying a tab with a credit card might also elect to pay the tip in cash for different reasons. Also, cash-paying customers will most certainly give cash tips, and these are not formally accounted in any way at all.

Most bartenders I've known regularly tally up coins collected as tips as well as small bills, and exchange them for large bills out of the till on a periodic basis. That way the bar always has change and small bills on hand to make change (and for customers to leave as the next round of tips), and the cycle starts all over again. $1000 in tips is only 50 20-dollar bills, only 20 50-dollar bills, and only 10 100-dollar bills. Neither is a particularly large bundle to keep in a purse.

This may be true for restaurants, but not bars or clubs, especially those in downtown Toronto or Montreal. I always open tabs with my credit card. I watch where server places my card. Sometimes its in her bra, but most of the time, it's in a cup with my ID next to the cash. I'm always only one of maybe a maximum of five people who open tabs. Just because one opens a tab does not mean they will close the tab on said credit card. So the percentage of people that actually pay with credit cards is negligible.

Records of tips received must be kept because most bartenders are payed less than minimum wage, and their wages must be supplemented by tips. This supplementation must be declared every year on their income tax returns.

Finally, I've never seen my bartender exchange her tips for large bills and I can't imagine that she'd have time to do so at a popular bar/club on a busy Friday or Saturday night during the 4 hours the bar is open (which is really 2 hours because most clubs are empty until 12 am).

But back to my point: most patrons pay with cash and tip with coins. Therefore it is highly unlikely that the stolen purse contained $1000-worth in coins.

Now, let's bring the theft of the purse back into it. How is the criminal act of theft while drunk any different from the criminal act of driving while drunk? Why would you expect the bar should be held liable because someone stole after having a few drinks?

Not everything is so black-and-white, and DWI is totally different. If someone is served past their limits and the server is aware, the bar must be held to some liability for that patron's actions if those actions cause damage.

The Liquor Licence Act R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 719 states:

20. (1) The holder of a licence to sell liquor shall not engage in or permit practices that may tend to encourage patrons’ immoderate consumption of liquor. O. Reg. 354/07, s. 3.

Liquor Licence Act, R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER L.19. states:

39. The following rules apply if a person or an agent or employee of a person sells liquor to or for a person whose condition is such that the consumption of liquor would apparently intoxicate the person or increase the person’s intoxication so that he or she would be in danger of causing injury to himself or herself or injury or damage to another person or the property of another person:

1. If the person to or for whom the liquor is sold commits suicide or meets death by accident while so intoxicated, an action under Part V of the Family Law Act lies against the person who or whose employee or agent sold the liquor.
2. If the person to or for whom the liquor is sold causes injury or damage to another person or the property of another person while so intoxicated, the other person is entitled to recover an amount as compensation for the injury or damage from the person who or whose employee or agent sold the liquor. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19,s. 39.

A good lawyer may be able to make an argument along the lines that the act of theft was damaging.

 

[imnothng]

Records of tips received must be kept because most bartenders are payed less than minimum wage, and their wages must be supplemented by tips. This supplementation must be declared every year on their income tax returns.

I couldn't help but laugh at that. I know they are "supposed to", but let's be realistic.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Perhaps no ones thought about doing that yet. The idea is a little perverse and out there if you think about it. But why not? Why does society blame the gun and the gun manufacturer/retailer and not hold the perpetrator fully accountable?

Oh, I'm pretty sure that it's been tried before. In the case of impaired driving causing injury, or death, the bar/restaurant is considered a culpable third party, that had a financial interest in selling alcohol to the patron. The injured party isn't part of the transaction, between those two entities.

In this case the injured party is an employee of one of the bar/restaurant, so not a "culpable third party." Being inebriated doesn't mitigate against the guilt of the person, who committed the act.

 

[promac]

I couldn't help but laugh at that. I know they are "supposed to", but let's be realistic.

LOL - are the CRA auditors on this board paying attention? OP's buddy should call the CRA snitch line and tell them this chick makes $1,000 per night.

 

[crankcall]

Having read through 6 pages of some interesting, some idiotic and some comical responses. Here is my take . Your friend needs a lawyer now, he will be probably be charged, if he returns the purse and the alleged missing cash he may be able to make this go away with a stern lecture. Or not.
Its his word against hers, the $1000 gets the attention of the police more so than a walmart handbag. And he has been drunk enough to make off with a stolen handbag, which he wants to return once outed by facebook.

He should put his *** into alcohol rehab (wether he has a problem or not it looks better) and be prepared to put out 3-4k as a result of his bad judgement.

 

[turbodish]

Records of tips received must be kept because most bartenders are payed less than minimum wage, and their wages must be supplemented by tips. This supplementation must be declared every year on their income tax returns.

Tips are not employment earnings appearing on any T4 issued by the restaurant simply because tips are a private matter between the server or bartender and the customer. The server or bartender is still required to report it as income, but that obligation rests solely on the shoulders of the employee.

The establishment itself ordinarily plays no part in formally recording tip income. Exceptions might includes establishments that automatically add a tipping service charge to the bill in the form of a fixed percentage of the customer's food and beverage order, as is the case in a very few establishments.

Regulations regarding overserving are generally aimed at helping to ensure that drunken patrons don't accidentally injure themselves or others as a result of being drunk. That kind of "harm" is a reasonably probable outcome of allowing a person to drink to the point of excessive inebriation. A drunk "harming" himself into a jail cell or criminal proceedings as a result of committing a criminal act while drunk isn't the kind of harm that would necessarily be a probable outcome.

 

[Starchild]

In this case the injured party is an employee of one of the bar/restaurant, so not a "culpable third party." Being inebriated doesn't mitigate against the guilt of the person, who committed the act.

The whole situation is pretty ironic, I must admit, but the bar is still guilty of s. 20 (1) and in s. 39, there is no definition of relationship of another person or property of another person. As it is written, the bartender is, in fact, another person. But I'm no lawyer.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

The whole situation is pretty ironic, I must admit, but the bar is still guilty of s. 20 (1) and in s. 39, there is no definition of relationship of another person or property of another person. As it is written, the bartender is, in fact, another person. But I'm no lawyer.

By case law

 

[promac]

Tips are not employment earnings appearing on any T4 issued by the restaurant simply because tips are a private matter between the server or bartender and the customer. The server or bartender is still required to report it as income, but that obligation rests solely on the shoulders of the employee.

OK, then the bartender should keep a log or record of tip earnings so she can report it her T1 return. Such a record should show an earnings history. The CRA would be happy to take a look at that too - they say tips account for 100-400% of earnings. Perhaps they might like to revise that estimate to say, 2,500% - LOL! At least the thief can get some comfort as to the reasonableness of the amount she claimed she lost, although it's not to say that she didn't have that amount on her person anyway.

 

[AdRath]

OK, then the bartender should keep a log or record of tip earnings so she can report it her T1 return. Such a record should show an earnings history. The CRA would be happy to take a look at that too - they say tips account for 100-400% of earnings. Perhaps they might like to revise that estimate - LOL! At least the thief can get some comfort as to the reasonableness of the amount she claimed she lost, although it's not to say that she didn't have that amount on her person anyway.

I love how you have taken the side of a known thief based on his word via 2nd hand account from a friend of his. lol

Ya screw those people that have their belongings stolen they should be investigated to the fullest extent for fear that a poor thief would be taken advantage of.

None of this changes the fact that the thief stole a persons belongs and only came clean after being caught. The thief couldn't possibly lie about the contents of a purse when asked to give it back now could they? As someone who has had over $1k in my wallet at many points in life I didn't realize it was such an unbelievable feat and authorities should be alerted to rip apart my life with forensic accounting. :roll:

 

[Starchild]

By case law

Can you please explain further?

I love how you have taken the side of a known thief based on his word via 2nd hand account from a friend of his. lol

Ya screw those people that have their belongings stolen they should be investigated to the fullest extent for fear that a poor thief would be taken advantage of.

None of this changes the fact that the thief stole a persons belongs and only came clean after being caught. The thief couldn't possibly lie about the contents of a purse when asked to give it back now could they? As someone who has had over $1k in my wallet at many points in life I didn't realize it was such an unbelievable feat and authorities should be alerted to rip apart my life with forensic accounting. :roll:

HTA 172 aside, what ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty." How do you know if the bartender is taking advantage of the situation?

A possible argument might ask why "buddy" stole the purse in the first place? Is it because he has a history of theft? Maybe. Is it because he was inebriated? Probably. If you agree that he probably stole the purse because he was so inebriated, who's fault was it that he became inebriated to point of blacking out? 20 (1) says its the bar/server. If "buddy" is going to be charged with theft, then the bar/server should also be charged with over-serving.

Once this is determined, then one can start to look at if the purse actually contained $1000, but proving so will be quite difficult in my opinion.

 

[nobbie48]

Can you please explain further?

If "buddy" is going to be charged with theft, then the bar/server should also be charged with over-serving.

Once this is determined, then one can start to look at if the purse actually contained $1000, but proving so will be quite difficult in my opinion.

Is overserving a crime or does it just set one up for a lawsuit in case of an accident?

If someone wants me to justify having a grand on me I am willing to come up with logical excuses for $5.00 each with a minimum of ten excuses. Not that the victim is required to prove anything as her credibility out ranks that of the thief.

A freeby: I was going to test ride a bike and the owner wants cash in hand incase I damage it.

Has it been documented that the $1G is from tips?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Can you please explain further?

One example. Though it also includes a third party, it sufficiently explains the situation.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abpc/doc/2009/2009abpc360/2009abpc360.html

 

[AdRath]

HTA 172 aside, what ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty." How do you know if the bartender is taking advantage of the situation?

A possible argument might ask why "buddy" stole the purse in the first place? Is it because he has a history of theft? Maybe. Is it because he was inebriated? Probably. If you agree that he probably stole the purse because he was so inebriated, who's fault was it that he became inebriated to point of blacking out? 20 (1) says its the bar/server. If "buddy" is going to be charged with theft, then the bar/server should also be charged with over-serving.

Once this is determined, then one can start to look at if the purse actually contained $1000, but proving so will be quite difficult in my opinion.

I don't know that the bartender isn't taking advantage but we haven't hear the bartenders side and the only story is a very self serving one from an admitted thief. I know I would take a bartenders word over that of someone untrustworthy like a thief.

Alcohol consumption doesn't make you do stuff you wouldn't already be pre-disposed too. This kid obviously doesn't have the moral compass to know that steeling is wrong period. It wasn't like he sobered up and came clean he was outed and only when caught. Not a very trustworthy person.

How do we know he was so drunk to the point of blacking out? seems like a pretty handy excuse. He was able to function enough to steal the purse and get home just fine... but of course was too drunk to know what he was doing? right very convenient.

I just find it really funny on a motorcycle board where people cry and complain all the time about bike thieves that so many people are taking the side of the thief. I sure hope you never get your bike stolen. I guess you would understand and be compassionate toward the thief and also not except one cent more than the value of your bike from insurance. :roll:

 

[Starchild]

One example. Though it also includes a third party, it sufficiently explains the situation.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abpc/doc/2009/2009abpc360/2009abpc360.html

Cool read. So "buddy" should still be charged with theft because he only reached the second level of intoxication. I still believe, however, that the bar should also be charged with over-serving.

Has it been documented that the $1G is from tips?

Why else would a bartender take $1000 to work?

I just find it really funny on a motorcycle board where people cry and complain all the time about bike thieves that so many people are taking the side of the thief. I sure hope you never get your bike stolen. I guess you would understand and be compassionate toward the thief and also not except one cent more than the value of your bike from insurance. :roll:

What if my bike was stolen, but the thief returns it, and then I go back and say, "hey, I had $1000 in the trunk," when I didn't. Is that fair? How about I claim $2000 more than what my stolen bike is worth and raise everyone's premium? Is that fair?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Cool read. So "buddy" should still be charged with theft because he only reached the second level of intoxication. I still believe, however, that the bar should also be charged with over-serving.

That's a licensing issue. Court records are full of them.