Weird pinging problem | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Weird pinging problem

As long as you're using a plug "close" to the stock one, heat range is not a problem. MOST people don't REALLY understand what plug heat range IS, but changing plug heat range is not going to make your bike pre-ignite or ping. Heat range is more about fouling plugs that anything else. On a "hotter" plug the electrode sticks out more, and will absorb more heat from combustion, thereby making it harder to foul. Nothing to do with the temp or strength of the spark.
A faulty MAP sensor can make your bike ping.
"PING" is usually too much timing.
 
And after the Hondas the TPS got some BMWs (K75s I think) and they HATED them... at first. They eventually warmed up to the Beemers, then it was a race every morning to see who got the BMWs.
 
bitzz said:
And after the Hondas the TPS got some BMWs (K75s I think) and they HATED them... at first. They eventually warmed up to the Beemers, then it was a race every morning to see who got the BMWs.
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It's much less tiring riding something that sounds like a spaceship instead of a tractor.
 
bitzz said:
As long as you're using a plug "close" to the stock one, heat range is not a problem. MOST people don't REALLY understand what plug heat range IS, but changing plug heat range is not going to make your bike pre-ignite or ping. Heat range is more about fouling plugs that anything else. On a "hotter" plug the electrode sticks out more, and will absorb more heat from combustion, thereby making it harder to foul. Nothing to do with the temp or strength of the spark.
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UNDERSTANDING SPARK PLUG HEAT RANGE​

One of the most misunderstood aspects of spark plugs – is the heat range. One misconception is that the heat range is related to the spark temperature or intensity. Another common misconception is that the spark plug is designed as a heat sink to “remove” heat from the combustion chamber. These ideas are both false. The spark plug is heated during combustion and must dissipate that heat to the cylinder head at a certain rate to avoid overheating the ceramic firing end. The spark plug heat range only indicates the rate that the spark plug dissipates its firing end heat to the engine.
A hotter heat range spark plug has an insulator design with a longer heat flow path to the metal shell of the plug. As a result, more heat stays in the ceramic firing end and less is dissipated to the engine. A colder heat range spark plug has an insulator design with a shorter heat flow path to the metal shell of the plug. As a result, less heat stays in the ceramic firing end and more is dissipated to the engine. For a spark plug to function properly, it must have a tip temperature high enough to burn off carbon deposits (self-cleaning) and avoid fouling, while remaining low enough to avoid overheating the ceramic firing end and pre-ignition.
For most vehicles, the factory recommended heat range is sufficient; however, on some modified or special-use engines, alternative heat ranges may be necessary. Often hotter heat ranges have been used to address a fuel delivery or oil consumption problem. Installing a hotter heat range plug will reduce the pre-ignition safety margin, so it is better to correct the mechanical or tuning issue instead of changing the plug heat range.
 
GreyGhost said:
It's much less tiring riding something that sounds like a spaceship instead of a tractor.
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My brother the cop rode the last "stick shift" Harley TPS owned. They tried for years to get rid of it (the mechanics at 2 traffic refused to work on it and they shipped it to Pools in Hamilton for service... even oil changes. It was costing TPS a small fortune)
... but he was on the Blue Helmet team, so he got to keep the bike... till someone turned left right in front of him on Bathurst, while he was doing a funeral escort (Think about that for a minute... a BUNCH of cop bikes, escorting a solid line of cars in a funeral procession... seems like the right time to turn left, cutting off the funeral procession, right in front of a cop bike with a dozen flashing lights... and the idiot had stolen plates on the van, no insurance and a suspended license)
and that was the end of that bike... and him being a motorcycle cop.
A lot of being a motorcycle cop involves going slow: motorcade, funeral escort or parades. If you want to ride at a walking pace, you want a Harley, and the stick shift Harleys were best at going slow as they had a REALLY low first gear. Trying to ride at a walking pace on any other bike will either be real jerky or you'll burn the clutch (both look bad in a parade)
So I think we'll keep seeing Harley cop bikes for a while yet, at least for the Blue Helmets.

... and back when my brother was a motorcycle cop, you were always a motorcycle cop and did traffic, even in the winter. If there was snow on the ground, they would give you a car... IF you wanted one. You could also get a sidecar... IF you wanted one.
My brother the IDIOT went with the sidecar. He said it was great fun "bustin" snow drifts with it. He said the trick was to fishtail and lift the sidecar over the snow drift.
TRY THAT WITH A BMW
 
Bit of an update.

Checked the bike for codes and nothing came up.
Pulled the plugs and they look like this.
IMG_5306.jpg

The service manual has some descriptions and I believe this fall into the engine overheating. From the manual
"A light brown, glassy deposit indicates an overheated spark plug".

I bought new plugs HD's gold version of OEM's.

I also bought SeaFoam top end engine clearer (you spray it into the manifold while revving). Want to see if there is carbon inside it might help clean it out. Very skeptical about this, but will try.

Also pulled the air filter and checked the manifold etc, was in good shape.
I'm kinda temped to put back the original TMAP sensor.
 
sburns said:
Bit of an update.

Checked the bike for codes and nothing came up.
Pulled the plugs and they look like this.
View attachment 56729

The service manual has some descriptions and I believe this fall into the engine overheating. From the manual
"A light brown, glassy deposit indicates an overheated spark plug".

I bought new plugs HD's gold version of OEM's.

I also bought SeaFoam top end engine clearer (you spray it into the manifold while revving). Want to see if there is carbon inside it might help clean it out. Very skeptical about this, but will try.

Also pulled the air filter and checked the manifold etc, was in good shape.
I'm kinda temped to put back the original TMAP sensor.
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I cant see the important part of the plug. Need to see the ceramic nose near the electrode.
 
sburns said:
Ok I think this is what you need to see.
These plugs are fairly new. Maybe 3000k
View attachment 56736
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That's better. I'd say they look ok but I am not a plug master. You want to read them at the condition you are concerned about. In your case high load, low rpm, pull clutch/hit kill switch and coast to a safe parking area to pull and read the plugs. Be careful, they will be very hot.

I have no idea what some detonation looks like on a plug. Get enough and you break the plug.

Assuming you run 87 normally, see if 91/93 changes the behaviour of the bike. It sure sounds like detonation.
 
GreyGhost said:
That's better. I'd say they look ok but I am not a plug master. You want to read them at the condition you are concerned about. In your case high load, low rpm, pull clutch/hit kill switch and coast to a safe parking area to pull and read the plugs. Be careful, they will be very hot.

I have no idea what some detonation looks like on a plug. Get enough and you break the plug.

Assuming you run 87 normally, see if 91/93 changes the behaviour of the bike. It sure sounds like detonation.
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Bike needs 91. I always use 91.

I was at HD yesterday and had a chat with their fine service people.
They said - usually check plugs.
Then might be bad gas. I've never thought bad gas was a real problem, plus in my last ride I got gas in 2 very different geographical locations and different vendors.
When I mentioned the weather changed at night - they suggested larger cooler air molecules... this could be right.
They gave me a bottle of ethanol protector/fixer and suggested to try 94. If the situation doesn't change it's not the gas.
They also said carbon isn't a issue - (though it states it can be in the service manual)
They kinda suggested my bike is getting tired and the rings need to be replaced - I think that was a sales response.

Anywho I am going to try and address the possible carbon issue next.
 
sburns said:
Bike needs 91. I always use 91.

I was at HD yesterday and had a chat with their fine service people.
They said - usually check plugs.
Then might be bad gas. I've never thought bad gas was a real problem, plus in my last ride I got gas in 2 very different geographical locations and different vendors.
When I mentioned the weather changed at night - they suggested larger cooler air molecules... this could be right.
They gave me a bottle of ethanol protector/fixer and suggested to try 94. If the situation doesn't change it's not the gas.
They also said carbon isn't a issue - (though it states it can be in the service manual)
They kinda suggested my bike is getting tired and the rings need to be replaced - I think that was a sales response.

Anywho I am going to try and address the possible carbon issue next.
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Thanks. Tired rings should drop compression and I doubt that is related to your problem (unless it is abysmal and not firing). Have you done a compression or leakdown test?
 
GreyGhost said:
Thanks. Tired rings should drop compression and I doubt that is related to your problem (unless it is abysmal and not firing). Have you done a compression or leakdown test?
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Not yet, it was on my mind, but I don't have the tools for that. I know the comp tool goes on sale a PA but haven't looked.
it's also something HD said they would do.
They also would pressure test the fuel tank. There are some problems with the fuel lines in the tank after a while develop a pin hole and cause so erractic problems. They are plastic and apparently rub on the internal surface of the tank. But I have no error codes so that might be a last resort item.
 
sburns said:
Not yet, it was on my mind, but I don't have the tools for that. I know the comp tool goes on sale a PA but haven't looked.
it's also something HD said they would do.
They also would pressure test the fuel tank. There are some problems with the fuel lines in the tank after a while develop a pin hole and cause so erractic problems. They are plastic and apparently rub on the internal surface of the tank. But I have no error codes so that might be a last resort item.
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I would be surprised if it was a fuel tank issue at high load, low rpm but the more things you can cross off the better.

If you are in the area, we can do the leakdown test here. My "better" compression tester is sick (needs new valve stem with low tension spring [white rubber] but they cost almost as much as a tester). My spare is older than dirt and I don't entirely trust it.
 
sburns said:
Then might be bad gas. I've never thought bad gas was a real problem, plus in my last ride I got gas in 2 very different geographical locations and different vendors.
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Bad gas can leave deposits on the plug, like on the electrodes of those plugs in your picture. "BAD" gas is usually water, that can sit in the bottom of the tank (water is heavier than gas) for months and months.
Easy solution to water in your tank: add alcohol and stir... or drain the tank.
sburns said:
When I mentioned the weather changed at night - they suggested larger cooler air molecules... this could be right.
Click to expand...
Air molecules DO NOT change size. The DENSITY of the air molecules change... that's why your EFI bike has a MAP sensor. The MAP sensor measures air density in the manifold ( MAP = manifold absolute pressure)
Does the term "grasping at straws" mean anything to you?
If you think "carbon" may be the problem, do a compression test. If the two readings are within 10% of each other, carbon is NOT the problem.
If you think rings might be the problem: do a second compression test, but put a squirt of oil down the spark plug hole. If the rings are sacked the oil will help them seal better and on the second compression test, a "WET" compression test, the compression will go UP. If your rings are sacked the bike will burn oil and you'll be down on power.
What is the mileage on the bike?
Screw testing the tank for leaks... what is the pressure at the fuel rail: where it matters.
A "stock" Harley DOES NOT need or even WANT anything but regular fuel. Octane is to control pre-ignition caused by compression. Your stock Harley has a compression ratio of 8 1/2 or 9 to 1. "Regular" fuel is good up to about 10-10 1/2 to 1. The thing will run on kerosene if you could get it started.
Ethanol is NOT the problem either.
If you don't have a compression tester, if you want to ride up here I'll lend you one... or do the tests.
 
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