Toronto trying to save money ?

[bear22099]

For taxes Toronto has one of the lowest mil rates in Ontario (if not the lowest)--it is around 0.84%. BUT since the property vales are the highest there is a certain amount of canceling out.

Of course for the non-property owners here is a run down of how the system works... Your property taxes are calculated based on the mil rate times MPAC property value. For example if your mil rate is 1.6% and your MPAC property value is 100,000 you pay 1600 a year in tax. If your mil rate is 0.8% and your MPAC property value is 200,000 you pay 1600 in taxes. If you own property and do not know this you should feel great shame!

MPAC decides what your property is "worth" for the calculation above. They base it (estimate it) on local sales plus what your house has (sq.ft, number of bedrooms, lot size, etc.). You can even fight the value they place on your home to lower your taxes (I have and won).

Now when people say Toronto has low taxes they are referring to the mil rate not what people actually pay in dollars. In some cases they pay less and some more, but in the end the $$$s are pretty close to the same on average as 905 (similar area to similar area) because of the greater property values canceling out the lower mil rate.

BTW, when they say property tax is only being raised 3% they are talking about the mil rate not what you actually pay. In most cases the MPAC value also increased so the total revenue and of course what you pay may be way more than 3%!

When I say Toronto has lower taxes, I simply mean that they pay less out of their pocket at the end of the year for something called property taxes. Don't care how they figure it, does not matter. $2300 Scarborough tax dollars are still $1284 less than my $3584 Ajax tax dollars, and even more different to my friends Ajax tax dollars. Do residents of Toronto make less income because they live in Toronto? Don't think so. The point I am trying to make here is residents of Toronto feel that they already pay too much in property taxes. When they are paying a fair bit less than other cities nearby. And they are paying less with houses that have a higher value as well. It does not quite even out. The Scarborough house I was talking about has a very similar value to my friends house in Ajax.
If property taxes in Toronto were to go up 10%, they would likely still be lower than comparable 905 taxes, and would put a good dent in the deficit if not wipe it out completely and allow some cut services to be restored.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

When I say Toronto has lower taxes, I simply mean that they pay less out of their pocket at the end of the year for something called property taxes. Don't care how they figure it, does not matter. $2300 Scarborough tax dollars are still $1284 less than my $3584 Ajax tax dollars, and even more different to my friends Ajax tax dollars. Do residents of Toronto make less income because they live in Toronto? Don't think so. The point I am trying to make here is residents of Toronto feel that they already pay too much in property taxes. When they are paying a fair bit less than other cities nearby. And they are paying less with houses that have a higher value as well. It does not quite even out. The Scarborough house I was talking about has a very similar value to my friends house in Ajax.
If property taxes in Toronto were to go up 10%, they would likely still be lower than comparable 905 taxes, and would put a good dent in the deficit if not wipe it out completely and allow some cut services to be restored.

Precisely and, as I said in a previous post, the assessed value hasn't been substantially updated in years for the majority of those homes.

 

[thebigwoof]

It has nothing to do with the lowest price. The first patch was a cold patch, just to get the street open again, the second time was a hot patch, which is a longer lasting patch, until they can get the unshrinkable fill and a real asphalt job done, which is a permanent repair.

Makes no sense think about it. If the city had it's act together they would have made sure the job wouldn't get started until the repair to the road could be done properly the first time. This wasn't an emergency repair that they didn't have time to get contractors organized for.
On top of that how hard is it to get a concrete truck in Toronto ? I'm quite sure you could call 2-3 days ahead and schedule a time.

A private sector company with share holders to answer to wouldn't be spending money like this guaranteed. Imagine starting a project and you have to explain to your boss why the same job was re done 3 times.

 

[SkyRider]

sounds like someone's getting paid under the table but re-doing this work makes it look legit.

 

[backmarkerducati]

When I say Toronto has lower taxes, I simply mean that they pay less out of their pocket at the end of the year for something called property taxes. Don't care how they figure it, does not matter. $2300 Scarborough tax dollars are still $1284 less than my $3584 Ajax tax dollars, and even more different to my friends Ajax tax dollars. Do residents of Toronto make less income because they live in Toronto? Don't think so. The point I am trying to make here is residents of Toronto feel that they already pay too much in property taxes. When they are paying a fair bit less than other cities nearby. And they are paying less with houses that have a higher value as well. It does not quite even out. The Scarborough house I was talking about has a very similar value to my friends house in Ajax.
If property taxes in Toronto were to go up 10%, they would likely still be lower than comparable 905 taxes, and would put a good dent in the deficit if not wipe it out completely and allow some cut services to be restored.

So using your logic, Toronto pays MORE in taxes because my house (one off example) is similar to what you describe yet I pay almost 5K a year in Property Tax, in Etobicoke.

House prices in Scarborough are some of the lowest in Toronto, that house with $2300 in PT is MPAC assessed at 270K, average house price in Toronto is well north of 400K, which BTW works out to roughly 3600 in taxes. Hmmm about the same as that house in Ajax!

 

[backmarkerducati]

Precisely and, as I said in a previous post, the assessed value hasn't been substantially updated in years for the majority of those homes.

As far as I know, MPAC just did ALL the houses in Toronto (I think all of Ontario) with the values increasing each year until they hit the current assessed value (I think in 2013), basically phased in. Cannot remember the date off the top of my head.

If the house was last assessed at 200K and the new assessment is 600K, each year they increase the value of the house so that it reaches the assessed value in the final year. Each year the persons taxes will jump accordingly.


PS:

2008 was the last province wide assessment, the next is 2012.

http://www.mpac.ca/pages_english/property_owners/assessment_update.asp

 

[Chaos]

As far as I know, MPAC just did ALL the houses in Toronto (I think all of Ontario) with the values increasing each year until they hit the current assessed value (I think in 2013), basically phased in. Cannot remember the date off the top of my head.

If the house was last assessed at 200K and the new assessment is 600K, each year they increase the value of the house so that it reaches the assessed value in the final year. Each year the persons taxes will jump accordingly.


PS:

2008 was the last province wide assessment, the next is 2012.

http://www.mpac.ca/pages_english/property_owners/assessment_update.asp

Yup. My property was reassessed in 2008. If the next is 2012, I am definitely going to get reassessed again.

 

[AdRath]

The difference can be a lot in some cases. I have a friend in Ajax that pays $3900 a year in taxes on a 1000 sqft single storey house on a lot that is 40 feet wide, 250 feet deep, and his inlaws in Scarborough pay $2300 a year in taxes on a 1400 sqft single storey house on a lot that is 50 feet wide, 200 feet deep. Both houses are approx same age, 50 some odd years old.

What are the houses valued at? That makes a big difference.

Also lot size and density are huge. If I were to construct your friends lot or the scarborough lot in my area that would cover at least 3 houses (close to 4) Are the residents of Ajax paying the same amount as a 40ft x 250ft Toronto lot?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

As far as I know, MPAC just did ALL the houses in Toronto (I think all of Ontario) with the values increasing each year until they hit the current assessed value (I think in 2013), basically phased in. Cannot remember the date off the top of my head.

If the house was last assessed at 200K and the new assessment is 600K, each year they increase the value of the house so that it reaches the assessed value in the final year. Each year the persons taxes will jump accordingly.


PS:

2008 was the last province wide assessment, the next is 2012.

http://www.mpac.ca/pages_english/property_owners/assessment_update.asp

And yet, once again a mayor doesn't want to lose popularity by increasing property taxes to necessary levels.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/02/23/toronto-property-tax.html

 

[AdRath]

And yet, once again a mayor doesn't want to lose popularity by increasing property taxes to necessary levels.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/02/23/toronto-property-tax.html

Of course not because that wouldn't perpetuate the gravy train myth he sold to voters.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Of course not because that wouldn't perpetuate the gravy train myth he sold to voters.

Well there's some truth in it, as any large organization eventually fosters waste, but it certainly isn't as bad as he had convinced people it was. If it was that easy to find and fix, then he wouldn't have needed an audit of services.

 

[AdRath]

Well there's some truth in it, as any large organization eventually fosters waste, but it certainly isn't as bad as he had convinced people it was. If it was that easy to find and fix, then he wouldn't have needed an audit of services.

He needed to use Miller's massive surplus to even balance the budget. Next year we are screwed unless he increases property taxes. As a resident I would rather see a property tax increase and a functional city then to strip all services to nothing. I think voters will soon realize that the definition of 'Gravy' will be changing to include the meat and potatoes under the gravy. (it sounds so delicious). The fact is there isn't enough waste to pay for the promises to the suburban Torontonians that got him elected.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

He needed to use Miller's massive surplus to even balance the budget. Next year we are screwed unless he increases property taxes. As a resident I would rather see a property tax increase and a functional city then to strip all services to nothing. I think voters will soon realize that the definition of 'Gravy' will be changing to include the meat and potatoes under the gravy. (it sounds so delicious). The fact is there isn't enough waste to pay for the promises to the suburban Torontonians that got him elected.

What "massive surplus" would that be? If there was a surplus, and it was massive, then Miller should have used it to pay down the debt. It was an accounting shell game, at best.

Depends on what you mean by "cutting services." If things are taken down to a level that's provided by the surrounding municipalities, then that would be reasonable. As I said previously, basic infrastructure has been ignored for decades. There's an awful lot of stuff that needs to be repaired/replaced before anything new can be tackled. Hell, there are issues with paying for the current services, because things are in such a poor state of repair.

 

[backmarkerducati]

And yet, once again a mayor doesn't want to lose popularity by increasing property taxes to necessary levels.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/02/23/toronto-property-tax.html

And of course no property tax increase just refers to the mil rate since the MPAC value of pretty much every home is going up yearly from 2008 to 2012 (the last phased in reassessment) . So the revenue and what people pay in actual dollars are increasing year to year, my guess is somewhere near 5% for each home owner on average per year. Of course this is also happening in 905.

No property tax increase should really mean a decrease in mil rate so the total dollars and what each house pays is the same.

 

[AdRath]

What "massive surplus" would that be? If there was a surplus, and it was massive, then Miller should have used it to pay down the debt. It was an accounting shell game, at best.

Depends on what you mean by "cutting services." If things are taken down to a level that's provided by the surrounding municipalities, then that would be reasonable. As I said previously, basic infrastructure has been ignored for decades. There's an awful lot of stuff that needs to be repaired/replaced before anything new can be tackled. Hell, there are issues with paying for the current services, because things are in such a poor state of repair.

Ok maybe massive was the wrong word but it was money left behind by Miller that Ford used. Isn't everything an accounting shell game?

I agree with cutting some services like the homeless outreach programs. You guys in the 905 can have your homeless people back. They only flock here for the services. Then a chunk of your tax base can pay or deal with your own homeless issues rather than having it put on Toronto
s dime. Wonder how much that would free up in policing budget and social services budgets.

What shouldn't be cut are parks and outdoor space. There are a lot of those areas that are far behind what the 905 gets. Like I said I would be happy to pay for services with a tax increase as long as those who are taking and not giving back to Toronto pay their fees also and I'm talking the federal and provincial governments. We as a tax base make them lots of money to subsidize the outlying areas development. Give Toronto the tax base its fair cut of the money.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Actually we have homeless in the 905 too. They flock to Toronto from across the country and, if you talk to a few, apparently the US also.

When it comes to parks maybe people should pick up their own damned trash, for one thing? Send the bylaw officers in and make it a profit centre.

 

[fastar1]

When it comes to parks maybe people should pick up their own damned trash, for one thing? Send the bylaw officers in and make it a profit centre.

Seriously! Isn't it a $500 offense to litter? With all the bits of crap that keep piling up around the city, a bit of enforcement would wipe out the deficit in a few weeks.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Seriously! Isn't it a $500 offense to litter? With all the bits of crap that keep piling up around the city, a bit of enforcement would wipe out the deficit in a few weeks.

They could just set up outside every Timmie's and wipe the debt out in a week.

 

[AdRath]

Actually we have homeless in the 905 too. They flock to Toronto from across the country and, if you talk to a few, apparently the US also.

When it comes to parks maybe people should pick up their own damned trash, for one thing? Send the bylaw officers in and make it a profit centre.

In our community we pick up our own park trash. I've never seen anyone from the city other than to cut the grass and to open the wading pool for a few hours a day. 2 services I never want to see cut. Give me access to the city lawnmowers and I'd gladly cut it myself.

 

[RetroGrouch]

No more money for the cyclists, they've been given plenty. And it's not like they pay anything to use the roads. I've been cycling downtown more this year for health and economy reasons and I don't see what the big deal is about. It's perfectly safe if you don't ride like a jackass.