Toronto trying to save money ?

[thebigwoof]

Last fall the water supply was changed on the street from being shared by two houses to a separate supply to each house. This involved cutting a 4' x 4' hole in the road and digging down to the water main for every two houses.

Once the work got finished another crew came and fixed the pavement. This crew did a horrible job and the pavement was uneven and bumpy. In the spring they came back again and cut the pavement and fixed it properly.

On Monday morning I hear heavy equipment outside and look out the window to see them digging out the new pavement that was put down a month ago. The workers said they had to have concrete poured under the pavement.

The best part of the whole thing is the street is going to be totally re done this summer including new sidewalks and curbs.

That adds up to the paving job being done 4 times. I think I need to become a contractor for the city and get paid to do the job 4 times. I'm sure this is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to wasted money in this city. Someone has to be accountable for this, whoever is signing off on the work must know whats going on.

 

[imnothng]

For sure. I thought I heard something about this going on and that they were going to address it, but I guess that just means they'll keep on going the same.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

This is the problem when you go for the lowest quote, then don't provide oversight on the job; corners get cut, to try and save a buck. It's a reason why you make sure that you put a clause stating "the lowest bid will not necessarily be the winning bid", on any RFQ.

Without the concrete underlay, you'll have potholes every four feet in a couple of years. Was it the same contractor, who came back to put in the concrete? If yes, then they didn't likely get paid for it. If not, it's because the city didn't trust them to do the job right anymore.

*EDIT* It's time that people in Toronto came to understand they can't have services that are provided at a higher level than the rest of the GTA, when they have tax levels that are the lowest in the GTA. Taxes have to be increased, to a reasonable level, and services need to be brought down to a reasonable level. The infrastructure, in this city, has been neglected for 50 years and it's falling apart.

 

[nobbie48]

This is the problem when you go for the lowest quote, then don't provide oversight on the job; corners get cut, to try and save a buck. It's a reason why you make sure that you put a clause stating "the lowest bid will not necessarily be the winning bid", on any RFQ.

Without the concrete underlay, you'll have potholes every four feet in a couple of years. Was it the same contractor, who came back to put in the concrete? If yes, then they didn't likely get paid for it. If not, it's because the city didn't trust them to do the job right anymore.

*EDIT* It's time that people in Toronto came to understand they can't have services that are provided at a higher level than the rest of the GTA, when they have tax levels that are the lowest in the GTA. Taxes have to be increased, to a reasonable level, and services need to be brought down to a reasonable level. The infrastructure, in this city, has been neglected for 50 years and it's falling apart.

Two points

1) Construction blackmail. A contractor takes the job cheap and makes up for it with extras. If he doesn't get them the project gets put on hold and the owner is up a creek unless he caves in. It works in private or government jobs.

2) How much lower are the taxes in Toronto than the surrounding areas?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Two points

1) Construction blackmail. A contractor takes the job cheap and makes up for it with extras. If he doesn't get them the project gets put on hold and the owner is up a creek unless he caves in. It works in private or government jobs.

2) How much lower are the taxes in Toronto than the surrounding areas?

#1 - Only happens when someone screws the pooch on wording the RFQ/RFP.

#2 - Several percentage points, plus freezes on property value assessments going back maybe a decade.

 

[BLUE_KAWI]

LOL...ONTARIO is the next California. Just wait for the debt crisis to hit the North American shores after Europe.
Toronto cancelled bikes lanes in order to save money! LOL...how much can they save by not painting road markers?

 

[roadtoruin]

*EDIT* It's time that people in Toronto came to understand they can't have services that are provided at a higher level than the rest of the GTA, when they have tax levels that are the lowest in the GTA. Taxes have to be increased, to a reasonable level, and services need to be brought down to a reasonable level. The infrastructure, in this city, has been neglected for 50 years and it's falling apart.

I don't buy that taxes are lower so we should expect less argument. How much denser is the population in toronto compared to gta? how close together are the houses and how many more houses are there paying those slightly lower taxes?

 

[kiterider]

you know they could've built a really nice playground for us, with all that asphalt going to waste ...

 

[RetroGrouch]

LOL...ONTARIO is the next California. Just wait for the debt crisis to hit the North American shores after Europe.
Toronto cancelled bikes lanes in order to save money! LOL...how much can they save by not painting road markers?

Bike lanes are being rearranged. Jarvis should've never had bike lanes. The way it was originally with the alternating center lane worked well but Miller had to upset the applecart and added bike lanes while removing the center lane to appease his granola head supporters. Ford is now removing the Jarvis bike lanes and creating a separated bike lane on Sherbourne, it's a good balance. It would be absolutely economically unfeasible to have separated bike lanes on every downtown street, there's just not enough room or money to do that. Not too mention that bike lanes are underutilized during the winter months. And what's up with those bicycle only areas at the front of intersections? I have never seen any cyclists use them. Now that was a waste.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I don't buy that taxes are lower so we should expect less argument. How much denser is the population in toronto compared to gta? how close together are the houses and how many more houses are there paying those slightly lower taxes?

You're missing the point. Torontonians expect to pay lower taxes, but receive MORE services. What about the 80 year old water mains?

This shows population densities, for Toronto and the surrounding area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Toronto_Area

A quick calculation from this page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga

... shows that Mississauga has 2318 people per square Km.

But population density creates its own issues. Transportation becomes a problem. You can't just dig up the 'front yard' of a condo complex, to fix the water mains. You need to move massive amounts of garbage for large distances, to get it out of the city. High population density doesn't automatically imply efficiency.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Bike lanes are being rearranged. Jarvis should've never had bike lanes. The way it was originally with the alternating center lane worked well but Miller had to upset the applecart and added bike lanes while removing the center lane to appease his granola head supporters. Ford is now removing the Jarvis bike lanes and creating a separated bike lane on Sherbourne, it's a good balance. It would be absolutely economically unfeasible to have separated bike lanes on every downtown street, there's just not enough room or money to do that. Not too mention that bike lanes are underutilized during the winter months. And what's up with those bicycle only areas at the front of intersections? I have never seen any cyclists use them. Now that was a waste.

Yes, Jarvis was an idiotic choice. It's cheap to tear out lights. It's expensive to have to buy them and reinstall them. Sherbourne already has bike lanes, that could be expanded upon. Sherbourne is lightly travelled, southbound, and moves well, northbound.

They've used percentage increase in bicycle riders, to try and show that the bike lanes are a success. A percentage increase in a very small number, when thousands of passenger vehicle users were impacted. Where there are pre-existing bicycle lanes, in this city, I see as many riders on the sidewalks as I do in the bicycle lanes. Miller wanted a legacy. Well he has it; massive, unnecessary debt and hair-brained schemes.

 

[roadtoruin]

High population density doesn't automatically imply efficiency.

No argument there, but it does imply a lot more tax collected to blow on repaving roads 4 times over.

 

[thebigwoof]

This is the problem when you go for the lowest quote, then don't provide oversight on the job; corners get cut, to try and save a buck. It's a reason why you make sure that you put a clause stating "the lowest bid will not necessarily be the winning bid", on any RFQ.

Without the concrete underlay, you'll have potholes every four feet in a couple of years. Was it the same contractor, who came back to put in the concrete? If yes, then they didn't likely get paid for it. If not, it's because the city didn't trust them to do the job right anymore.

*EDIT* It's time that people in Toronto came to understand they can't have services that are provided at a higher level than the rest of the GTA, when they have tax levels that are the lowest in the GTA. Taxes have to be increased, to a reasonable level, and services need to be brought down to a reasonable level. The infrastructure, in this city, has been neglected for 50 years and it's falling apart.

The problem seems to be that there are different departments that don't talk to each other. I guess it was the water departments contractor that did the repair the first time. The second time it was the roads contractor to "fix" the first job.

I'm not sure who the 3rd contractor was but they guy I talked to from the city said they had no record that the street was slated up for repair. (even though there is paint everywhere and it's pretty obvious).

There needs to be a streamlined process where everything gets done at once. The water job could have waited until now. The system was working fine with 2 house sharing one connection, I'm sure it would have lasted another 8 months.
I guess the root of the problem is that there are too many contractors getting rich off the city and kickbacks going to city employees.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I guess the root of the problem is that there are too many contractors getting rich off the city and kickbacks going to city employees.

Never attribute to corruption, that which can be explained through simple stupidity.

 

[Chaos]

*EDIT* It's time that people in Toronto came to understand they can't have services that are provided at a higher level than the rest of the GTA, when they have tax levels that are the lowest in the GTA. Taxes have to be increased, to a reasonable level, and services need to be brought down to a reasonable level. The infrastructure, in this city, has been neglected for 50 years and it's falling apart.

I agree. But raising municipal personal taxes in itself will cause more problems in the form of a potential exodus to the suburbs. A lot of jobs have moved out of Toronto due to favourable municipal corporate taxes. I believe people are willing to eat personal taxes to live close to work (YMMV), so I would couple an increase personal with a decrease in corporate, as unattractive and unpopular as that as sounds.

I'd also try to cut social programs. The city just can't afford them. Again, an unpopular move.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I think that I'd first try to get the two upper levels of government to actually pay the money that they promised, for those social programmes. IIRC the Federal Government still owes Toronto a rather princely sum, for immigration support programmes.

 

[bear22099]

I don't buy that taxes are lower so we should expect less argument. How much denser is the population in toronto compared to gta? how close together are the houses and how many more houses are there paying those slightly lower taxes?

The difference can be a lot in some cases. I have a friend in Ajax that pays $3900 a year in taxes on a 1000 sqft single storey house on a lot that is 40 feet wide, 250 feet deep, and his inlaws in Scarborough pay $2300 a year in taxes on a 1400 sqft single storey house on a lot that is 50 feet wide, 200 feet deep. Both houses are approx same age, 50 some odd years old.

 

[murf]

I believe whitby/Oshawa have the highest rates. I don't think your Ajax example is accurate. 1600 ft in whitby pays $4100, on a regualr lot.

 

[backmarkerducati]

For taxes Toronto has one of the lowest mil rates in Ontario (if not the lowest)--it is around 0.84%. BUT since the property vales are the highest there is a certain amount of canceling out.

Of course for the non-property owners here is a run down of how the system works... Your property taxes are calculated based on the mil rate times MPAC property value. For example if your mil rate is 1.6% and your MPAC property value is 100,000 you pay 1600 a year in tax. If your mil rate is 0.8% and your MPAC property value is 200,000 you pay 1600 in taxes. If you own property and do not know this you should feel great shame!

MPAC decides what your property is "worth" for the calculation above. They base it (estimate it) on local sales plus what your house has (sq.ft, number of bedrooms, lot size, etc.). You can even fight the value they place on your home to lower your taxes (I have and won).

Now when people say Toronto has low taxes they are referring to the mil rate not what people actually pay in dollars. In some cases they pay less and some more, but in the end the $$$s are pretty close to the same on average as 905 (similar area to similar area) because of the greater property values canceling out the lower mil rate.

BTW, when they say property tax is only being raised 3% they are talking about the mil rate not what you actually pay. In most cases the MPAC value also increased so the total revenue and of course what you pay may be way more than 3%!

 

[oilycreek]

This is the problem when you go for the lowest quote, then don't provide oversight on the job; corners get cut, to try and save a buck. It's a reason why you make sure that you put a clause stating "the lowest bid will not necessarily be the winning bid", on any RFQ.

Without the concrete underlay, you'll have potholes every four feet in a couple of years. Was it the same contractor, who came back to put in the concrete? If yes, then they didn't likely get paid for it. If not, it's because the city didn't trust them to do the job right anymore.

*EDIT* It's time that people in Toronto came to understand they can't have services that are provided at a higher level than the rest of the GTA, when they have tax levels that are the lowest in the GTA. Taxes have to be increased, to a reasonable level, and services need to be brought down to a reasonable level. The infrastructure, in this city, has been neglected for 50 years and it's falling apart.

It has nothing to do with the lowest price. The first patch was a cold patch, just to get the street open again, the second time was a hot patch, which is a longer lasting patch, until they can get the unshrinkable fill and a real asphalt job done, which is a permanent repair.