The next race bike
- Thread starter Brian P
- Start date
boyoboy
Well-known member
sounded like he is simply going to use a flashed ecu.
@brianP - hate to ask this while your CC is still smoldering, but have you decided on what tires you will be using?
I luv this thread lol.
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boyoboy
Well-known member
really find it encouraging to see people looking to the lwt classes. Grids are getting larger every year. good news for roadracing overall. sorry for the hijack...
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Shaman
Well-known member
It's fine. I've been racing a R3 most of the summer, but will shortly get title etc. for it if it doesn't fall through. Good times. Unfortunately in the Production class, the Ninja 400 is too big an advantage for anything else to be competitive, I've found.
And you get racing like this:
That is, indeed, 4 bikes in one picture.
That was my initial thinking, too ... always has been ... why do both?
Issue #1: Tuning - specifically, repeated dyno runs with minor tweaks in between. With a PowerCommander, you can alter the map and send the update to the PowerCommander in literally 5 seconds. With Woolich, every adjustment requires re-uploading, which takes several minutes. Several minutes per adjustment multiplied by a multitude of adjustments at the hourly rate for dyno time adds up.
Issue #2: Quickshifter. The stock ECU has no provision for one. So, you are either buying a stand-alone quickshifter, or you are buying a PowerCommander and use the quickshifter capability built into that. A stand-alone quickshifter module isn't a whole lot less expensive than a PowerCommander.
So why not just use a PowerCommander alone instead of doing both? If it were a street bike (and I had no desire for a quickshifter), that's what I'd do, but this is a race bike. Reflashing the stock ECU allows changes to be made that cannot be done in a PowerCommander alone - like changing the rev limit, disabling closed-loop operation so that the stock lambda sensor can be removed, disabling the fault code for having the air-injection disconnected, disabling deceleration fuel cut for better driveability. And you can change internal maps in ways that a PowerCommander cannot emulate - like the rate-of-TPS-change correction map (technically called "wall-wetting compensation"), which is evidently something of an issue with the stock R3 calibration.
So at that point it was a choice between either reflashing my own ECU and figuring out all these changes on my own, or buying one that's already reflashed with (supposedly) all of the headaches already figured out by someone else. Price wise it's six of one, half dozen of the other.
Brian. We built our R3 at the start of this season.If you have any questions ask away. I would suggest the http://flexi-glass.com/yamaha.php bodywork. The fitment is perfect. It clears the woodcraft clip-ons and you don't need any steering stops. Although we did add a couple of stick on wheel weights to ours. We went with the Ktech cartidges and the Kteck rear shock. With the woodcraft rear sets converted to GP shift you need the pull sensor for the quickshifter.
We went with a non o-ring 520 dirt bike chain. Because the R3 and R6 use the same sprockets, so all of our R6 front and rear 520 sprockets that we already had can be used on the R3
We went with a non o-ring 520 dirt bike chain. Because the R3 and R6 use the same sprockets, so all of our R6 front and rear 520 sprockets that we already had can be used on the R3
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I raced for most of the season with the shift light at the stock 11k spot. I changed it to 12k K but I didn,t notice any difference in the engine behaviour and there were no noticeable changes on the dyno either.
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I'm still using the stock R3 tube. I tried what I thought was an R6 tube and it made the cable slop really bad.
I've got Flexiglass on order - that it comes painted is a really big deal; I'm planning to use stickers/wrap for anything not the base colour.
Good info on the sprockets - I didn't know that they're the same as the R6. That opens up a lot of options. To be honest I'm leery of the 415 chain that others are using ... I broke a 428 chain (oem size) on the fizzer and switched to a 520 because it's stronger.
What gearing are you using for Shannonville? Fizzer experience is that the same setup will work at Grand Bend, Shannonville, TMP. Maybe one tooth different rear sprocket if you are fussy.
Not surprised that 11k vs 12k shift points don't make much difference ... dyno charts for these engines that I've seen all flatten out above approx 10,000 rpm anyhow.
A few bits have shown up - like a windscreen, that I can't do anything with until everything else is done. I've gotten a notification that the parts I've ordered from the US have shipped, although I won't be able to retrieve them from the USAddress depot until two weeks from now.
I picked up a used steering damper. It looks like I am on my own for making mounting brackets. Seems that a 41mm fork tube clamp is unobtainable, and the Graves steering damper mounting kit is outrageously expensive for what it is. I've got a bandsaw, a drill press, and a welder. Ve vill make vork.
Good info on the sprockets - I didn't know that they're the same as the R6. That opens up a lot of options. To be honest I'm leery of the 415 chain that others are using ... I broke a 428 chain (oem size) on the fizzer and switched to a 520 because it's stronger.
What gearing are you using for Shannonville? Fizzer experience is that the same setup will work at Grand Bend, Shannonville, TMP. Maybe one tooth different rear sprocket if you are fussy.
Not surprised that 11k vs 12k shift points don't make much difference ... dyno charts for these engines that I've seen all flatten out above approx 10,000 rpm anyhow.
A few bits have shown up - like a windscreen, that I can't do anything with until everything else is done. I've gotten a notification that the parts I've ordered from the US have shipped, although I won't be able to retrieve them from the USAddress depot until two weeks from now.
I picked up a used steering damper. It looks like I am on my own for making mounting brackets. Seems that a 41mm fork tube clamp is unobtainable, and the Graves steering damper mounting kit is outrageously expensive for what it is. I've got a bandsaw, a drill press, and a welder. Ve vill make vork.
hrmph. interesting!
As far As I can tell the shift light is just a light. I was still shifting at about 12k before I changed the light. We have a power commander 5 with fuel and ignition. Loaded a map from some where. Aaron did that and I don't know where it came from.
For Shannonville 14 46-47 gearing seems to work well.
The bike doesn't need a damper but we put one on to add weight when Aaron did the CSBK rounds. I oddly had an old damper from a CBR F2 that seems to have had a 41 mm fork because the bracket bolted right on and then I used some steel angle to make a bracket that attaches to the fairing mount bolt points. I leave the damper turned off.
Bike with no fuel weighs about 300 pounds on the CSBK scales. Class limit is 320 so we had to add weight and run a full tank of gas to stay above the weight after a race.
boyoboy
Well-known member
It's fine. I've been racing a R3 most of the summer, but will shortly get title etc. for it if it doesn't fall through. Good times. Unfortunately in the Production class, the Ninja 400 is too big an advantage for anything else to be competitive, I've found.
And you get racing like this:
That is, indeed, 4 bikes in one picture.
Nice pic. this blurp is from the ninja400 forum. Im supposing RACE doesn't have rwhp limits in lwt?
Engine-R
Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by True View Post
Had my bike flashed and tuned last week. Bone stock pull was 44.7hp. After installing a full M4 it got 48.9. After flash and tuning I got 51.6 out of it but gained about 4hp through the entire rev range. 53hp on MR12. The bike makes power all the way to the 12k RPM limiter.We didn't bump the limiter up any because I don't want to risk popping the motor until I see other folks doing it first . I just thought I'd let you guys know my results. These numbers are SAE corrected too.
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Congrats, the performance increases mentioned here appear totally credible, 10% for the exhaust (here: 9.4%) and 5% for improvements in the ECU (here: 5.5%) are the rule.
But I would like to say one more thing, you are lucky with your engine, because the stock 44.7 RWHP indicate 49 HP at the crankshaft and the more data are visible, it becomes apparent that the power dispersion of the EX400 points upwards and the real power of the engine lies above the official data.
The regional organizations don't have a way of enforcing either a horsepower limit or a weight limit, and I fully realize that being up against a Ninja 400 is going to be an uphill battle. (I got beaten on my FZR400 by a teenager on an almost-stock Ninja 400 at the last SOAR round.)
This class (nowadays) is meant to apply to motorcycles which, in street form, are eligible for the european A2 license class - max 35 kW/47 hp, max 0.2 kW/kg. It's unclear if that horsepower is to be at the engine or at the rear wheel. Engine horsepower is essentially unmeasurable, so anything less than 47 rear wheel hp from the factory is fair game as long as it also meets the power to weight restriction ... I believe the R3 is hitting the power to weight ratio; the Ninja 400 is probably heavier so it can have a higher power. Same issue with engine-power-vs-rearwheel-power applies to the power to weight ratio.
At WSBK level, where they have a comparable class, they have been applying all sorts of restrictions to try to even out the class. CSBK requires the Ninja 400 to use an intake air restrictor.
I didn't go the Ninja 400 route because I would have had to buy a new one $ $ $, and the aftermarket parts support doesn't appear to be quite there yet. All sorts of stuff is available for the R3.
I'm beyond chasing championships, too olde for that. I just want something that's fun to ride, and works as it should, and is somewhere near competitive.
This class (nowadays) is meant to apply to motorcycles which, in street form, are eligible for the european A2 license class - max 35 kW/47 hp, max 0.2 kW/kg. It's unclear if that horsepower is to be at the engine or at the rear wheel. Engine horsepower is essentially unmeasurable, so anything less than 47 rear wheel hp from the factory is fair game as long as it also meets the power to weight restriction ... I believe the R3 is hitting the power to weight ratio; the Ninja 400 is probably heavier so it can have a higher power. Same issue with engine-power-vs-rearwheel-power applies to the power to weight ratio.
At WSBK level, where they have a comparable class, they have been applying all sorts of restrictions to try to even out the class. CSBK requires the Ninja 400 to use an intake air restrictor.
I didn't go the Ninja 400 route because I would have had to buy a new one $ $ $, and the aftermarket parts support doesn't appear to be quite there yet. All sorts of stuff is available for the R3.
I'm beyond chasing championships, too olde for that. I just want something that's fun to ride, and works as it should, and is somewhere near competitive.
Don't know about RACE, I haven't been there for the last few years although that may change next year. There are at least two classes for these.
At SOAR, Lightweight Superbike and Lightweight Twins. It should be competitive in LWSB. It won't be in LW Twins because there are SV650s in that class, but it's track time with everyone else. N.B. That very well ridden almost-stock Ninja 400 finished 2nd, right behind the winner on a much bigger bike, in LW Twins last round. I won't be doing that ... I'm 3 times that rider's age.
I gather that the Bickle lightweight race at CSBK Mosport was a one-time thing to give riders some more track time. They weren't running CSBK rules - the Ninja 400 riders took out their intake restrictors.
At SOAR, Lightweight Superbike and Lightweight Twins. It should be competitive in LWSB. It won't be in LW Twins because there are SV650s in that class, but it's track time with everyone else. N.B. That very well ridden almost-stock Ninja 400 finished 2nd, right behind the winner on a much bigger bike, in LW Twins last round. I won't be doing that ... I'm 3 times that rider's age.
I gather that the Bickle lightweight race at CSBK Mosport was a one-time thing to give riders some more track time. They weren't running CSBK rules - the Ninja 400 riders took out their intake restrictors.
boyoboy
Well-known member
cool. 320lbs and 40+ hp sounds like a hoot. Perhaps RACE/SOAR will ask the ninja 400 guys to use the csbk restrictors too...even w/o a dyno the honour system would probably work? (edit-otherwise a protest could confirm the bike has a restrictor or not) just a thought for fair play-
waiting patiently for pics to come.
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It's going to be a wee bit before there's anything worth taking a picture of. At the moment, it's a bike with all the bodywork removed. There's going to be about 3 weeks without any visible progress ... about a week and a half from now is the scheduled time when I will be picking up the US-sourced parts at USaddress (shipments are on the way there), and then there's a week-long business trip not long after that. Gotta pay for all this! And I've still got a couple weekends on the fizzer this season. October is when all that winds down.
RACE has Lightweight production, Lightweight Sportbike, Lightweight twins and Lightweight superbike. The last two have SV650s but there are enough of us with the 300s that we still have some good racing amongst ourselves while the SVs dissappear.
The Bickle class at CSBK allowed pros and unrestricted 400s whereas the CSBK class is amateur only and the 400s have to run the restrictor plate.
