The global Debt Clock

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Brian P said:
Aaaaannnd just like that, gold is going down together with other stocks going up.

The timing worked for me. I'm out of gold and into other things right now.
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Since Aug. 17 gold has tacked on $120.00/oz. Profit taking ensues, but the decade + tend remains in tact, right Brian. This is part of the bull trend as in any market. Nothing goes straight up or down. Fundamentally nothing has changed. We've seen this eb and flow hundreds of time in the last 12 years in the gold market, so why all the hu ha now?
 
Sales of new homes fell for the third straight month in July, a sign that housing remains a drag on the economy. If the current pace continues, 2011 would be the worst year for new-home sales in nearly half a century.

Sales fell nearly 1 percent in July to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 298,000, the Commerce Department said Tuesday. That’s less than half the 700,000 that economists say represent a healthy market.

Last year, 323,000 homes were sold — the worst year on records that go back to 1963.
While new homes represent less than one-fifth of the housing market, they have an outsize impact on the economy. Each home built creates an average of three jobs and $90,000 in taxes, according to the National Association of Home Builders.

Source: finance.yahoo.com
 
Duster929 said:
Now they've suspended the only gold that could almost be characterized as money!
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Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally in the past, a standard of deferred payment.[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] Any kind of object or secure verifiable record that fulfills these functions can serve as money.
Money originated as commodity money, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money.[SUP][4][/SUP] Fiat money is without intrinsic use value as a physical commodity, and derives its value by being declared by a government to be legal tender; that is, it must be accepted as a form of payment within the boundaries of the country, for "all debts, public and private".

"declared by a government to be legal tender" Try spending your CDN money in US of Whatever.
 
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imkruzen said:
Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally in the past, a standard of deferred payment.[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] Any kind of object or secure verifiable record that fulfills these functions can serve as money.
Money originated as commodity money, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money.[SUP][4][/SUP] Fiat money is without intrinsic use value as a physical commodity, and derives its value by being declared by a government to be legal tender; that is, it must be accepted as a form of payment within the boundaries of the country, for "all debts, public and private".

"declared by a government to be legal tender" Try spending your CDN money in US of Whatever.
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You continue posting internet links, but does that mean you're actually learning about the difference between assets and money? I hope you're reading the stuff you're posting, and I hope it's clearing things up for you. If you read the description you've posted, I hope you see now that gold is not money.
 
Duster929 said:
You continue posting internet links, but does that mean you're actually learning about the difference between assets and money? I hope you're reading the stuff you're posting, and I hope it's clearing things up for you. If you read the description you've posted, I hope you see now that gold is not money.
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What the article regarding gold as currency failed to indicate was the collateral ratio of gold. Not that it matters, really, but it would be interesting to know how much gold you need as collateral to borrow us$1.00. I'd very much doubt it's 100% of the value of the secured asset I'd guess anywhere from 25 to 50% and any loans secured by something as volatile as gold is essentially a margin account. So let me get this straight..........now you can borrow US$ to buy gold that can be held as security for the loan. Sounds familiar - another super bubble in the making? LOL! IMO, referring to gold as currency is misleading at this stage as very few use it as a medium of exchange. I agree with your position that gold is no more money than any other non-monetary asset.
 
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Duster929 said:
I hope you see now that gold is not money.
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Really GOLD isn't money? Why does it take over $1800 to buy 1 oz of gold? That's becasue you paper money is debt. Gold/Silver is not backed by debt. When gas prices go up, is it the value of gas going up or your paper money going down? back in the day, paper money was created out of convenience because you could not carry around heavy bars of gold, and other forms of barter. Then the bankers came into play starting to duplicate paper money backed by nothing.

Don't take my word for it. You will learn the hard way when this whole paper ponzi scheme goes down.
What you learn in school has been designed by the bankers. Here is a good vid on what is money:

Crash Course: What is Money? by Chris Martenson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8dq1bH1X6s

Crash Course: Chapter 7 - Money Creation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIxhsF6JLEA




My friend took this photo at the 44 King St. W. - Precious Metals Counter Scotia's Head Office
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8038/midas0822i.jpg
We have never seen the line up so long.
 
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Duster929 said:
You continue posting internet links, but does that mean you're actually learning about the difference between assets and money? I hope you're reading the stuff you're posting, and I hope it's clearing things up for you. If you read the description you've posted, I hope you see now that gold is not money.
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*Money* is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment.

Need it in another language that you can comprehend easier?
 
imkruzen said:
*Money* is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment.

Need it in another language that you can comprehend easier?
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After posting all these descriptions, it's clear that you either haven't read the descriptions you've posted, or you're incapable of understanding them. You really still don't know what money is. I can't help you with it - the descriptions you've posted will do a better job explaining it than I ever could. And yet you still can't see that those descriptions do not describe gold.

Keep reading and keep learning. One day it might start to make sense to you how gold is not money.
 
BLUE_KAWI said:
Really GOLD isn't money? Why does it take over $1800 to buy 1 oz of gold? That's becasue you paper money is debt. Gold/Silver is not backed by debt. When gas prices go up, is it the value of gas going up or your paper money going down? back in the day, paper money was created out of convenience because you could not carry around heavy bars of gold, and other forms of barter. Then the bankers came into play starting to duplicate paper money backed by nothing.

Don't take my word for it. You will learn the hard way when this whole paper ponzi scheme goes down.
What you learn in school has been designed by the bankers. Here is a good vid on what is money:
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What does the value of gold have to do with its being money or not? My house is worth more than $1800, that doesn't mean it's money. My car is worth more than $1800, that doesn't mean it's money. Gold can be worth $1 per ounce, or $1800 an ounce. It still doesn't mean that it's money.

You say that paper money was created out of convenience because people didn't want to use the barter system. You're almost there. MONEY was created for convenience because people didn't want to use the barter system. Whether this money is in coin form or paper form is irrelevant. It's still money. Whether it's backed by gold or not is also irrelevant. It's still money.

Your post indicates that you've got a lot to learn about economics. Keep at your studying. As for "what I learned in school", no one designed it. Did someone design the math that you learned in school? Did someone design the science that you learned in school. What a silly thing to say.

By the way, who designed the stuff you learned on the internet? You sure put a lot of stock in those "crash courses". I hope you're not using that as the basis of your education.
 
Duster929 said:
After posting all these descriptions, it's clear that you either haven't read the descriptions you've posted, or you're incapable of understanding them. You really still don't know what money is. I can't help you with it - the descriptions you've posted will do a better job explaining it than I ever could. And yet you still can't see that those descriptions do not describe gold.

Keep reading and keep learning. One day it might start to make sense to you how gold is not money.
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Why do central banks hold gold, if it’s not money? Why don't they hold diamonds?
 
imkruzen said:
Why do central banks hold gold, if it’s not money? Why don't they hold diamonds?
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Because they are assets that are recognized as a good store of value and a hedge against inflation. That doesn't mean that it's money. I can't believe you're having a hard time seeing the difference.

Why don't they hold diamonds? Likely there are a bunch of reasons, but I can think of a couple. First off, gold can be melted and re-formed. So technically, ounces of gold can be combined into a single bar of gold. Second, it can be stamped and marked, so that the US mint or whomever can put their unique engraving and labelling on a particular quantity of gold. And the third reason I can think of, off the top of my head, is that the diamond market is fairly tightly controlled by an oligopoly of dealers, and a relatively small number of producers in a limited number of countries. That doesn't make it a very good strategic store of value. Gold has a much more liquid market with more participants, and a more fluid supply and demand.

None of these things makes gold money.

If Bernanke was a little quicker on his feet he might have come up with a better answer.
 
Duster929 said:
Because they are assets that are recognized as a good store of value and a hedge against inflation. That doesn't mean that it's money. I can't believe you're having a hard time seeing the difference.

Why don't they hold diamonds? Likely there are a bunch of reasons, but I can think of a couple. First off, gold can be melted and re-formed. So technically, ounces of gold can be combined into a single bar of gold. Second, it can be stamped and marked, so that the US mint or whomever can put their unique engraving and labelling on a particular quantity of gold. And the third reason I can think of, off the top of my head, is that the diamond market is fairly tightly controlled by an oligopoly of dealers, and a relatively small number of producers in a limited number of countries. That doesn't make it a very good strategic store of value. Gold has a much more liquid market with more participants, and a more fluid supply and demand.

None of these things makes gold money.

If Bernanke was a little quicker on his feet he might have come up with a better answer.
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Gold and fiat currency are both means of exchange and are therefore money. People hold gold to hedge against risk because gold is money. Banks hold gold TRADITIONALLY because traditionally (several thousand years worth) GOLD IS MONEY.

Good money must have seven characteristics (from Richard Russell)

(1) It must be durable, which is why we don't use wheat or corn or rice.
(2) It must be divisible, which is why we don't use art work.
(3) It must be convenient, which is why we don't use lead or copper.
(4) It must be consistent, which is why we don't use real estate.
(5) It must possess value in itself, which is why we don't use paper.
(6) It must be limited in the quantity that is available, which is why we don't use aluminum or iron.
(7) It should have a long history of acceptance, which is why we don't use molybdenum or rhodium.

Only gold fits all seven characteristics.
 
You yourself keep posting the definition of money. You should be able to get this. Keep trying.

imkruzen said:
Good money must have seven characteristics (from Richard Russell)

(1) It must be durable, which is why we don't use wheat or corn or rice. Yes, gold is durable.
(2) It must be divisible, which is why we don't use art work. Gold is only divisible using specialized equipment, and in any case requires a scale. This is not practical "divisibility"
(3) It must be convenient, which is why we don't use lead or copper. How is gold more convenient than lead or copper? Gold is not convenient. It is very heavy and not very portable. I believe the word you're looking for here is "portable". Gold is not, not really.
(4) It must be consistent, which is why we don't use real estate. Gold is only consistent if it is minted into coins by a reputable, respected, and trusted authority, who guarantees the purity and the weight of the coin. As raw gold, it is not consistent. The word you are looking for here is "fungible". Gold coins are sometimes fungible. That's why some gold coins ARE money. Gold, as a commodity, is not.
(5) It must possess value in itself, which is why we don't use paper. Gold possesses no actual intrinsic value. It only has the value ascribed to it by the society that uses it. As you claim to have seen yourself, the value of gold has varied widely in recent years. According to you, what is the intrinsic value of an ounce of gold? Regardless, having intrinsic value is NOT a characteristic of money. Money DOES NOT have to have value in itself. And yes, we do use paper for money. Where have you been for the last couple of hundred years?
(6) It must be limited in the quantity that is available, which is why we don't use aluminum or iron. This is correct. Gold is difficult to manufacture, so its quantity is limited.
(7) It should have a long history of acceptance, which is why we don't use molybdenum or rhodium. This is NOT a required feature of money. New currencies have been created many times throughout history, and have been used as money despite a lack of "long history of acceptance".

Only gold fits all seven characteristics.
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As you see, you've got some points wrong, and you've got some right. But in any case, gold does not fit all the characteristics required of money. So, gold is NOT money. Keep working through those points. You're getting closer to understanding this.
 
money or not, good time to load up for that 2K mark! ok maybe give it a day or two and see if we can get another $100 lower or so.
 
Duster929 said:
You yourself keep posting the definition of money. You should be able to get this. Keep trying.



As you see, you've got some points wrong, and you've got some right. But in any case, gold does not fit all the characteristics required of money. So, gold is NOT money. Keep working through those points. You're getting closer to understanding this.
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Indeed - Gold is only as valuable as it's purity and weight and highly susceptable to tampering/clipping/counterfeiting. Without standardized minting of coins from a known, trusted and reputable banker, it's acceptance is questionable. I wouldn't know authentic from fake. Gold is heavy and not necessarily divisible - see above. It's also costly to secure and store. I believe that's why coin and paper money were backed by gold from a trusted source, stored in a secure location. It's value can change quite dramatically, as it has over the past few years and historically, for that matter. I wouldn't consider it a currency or currency equivalent - not in this day and age.
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