The end is nigh...

[Snobike Mike]

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I have one simple question for the alarmists:

Why is climate change bad?

 

[caboose56]

Do you consider anyone who is concerned by climate change to be an "alarmist"?

Or is it possible to be reasonably concerned for the environment for legitimate reasons?

 

[LePhillou]

I have one simple question for the alarmists:

Why is climate change bad?

Sea level. Due to the melting polar ice caps

That alone would ruin tons of lives.

Draughts in other areas due to higher temps.

That also would ruin tons of lives and agriculture.
And that's just 2 things i came up with without even thinking about it. And they have other implications.

We keep cutting down forest for more pasture, and create more pasture for more cattle that increases the greenhouse gases even more... so we're doing an inversely proportional equation of increasing greenhouse and decreasing our oxygen creation.

Continuing like this blindly isn't sustainable and someone down the line, whether it be our children, or grandchildren...or even their children will have to pay. Hell, with the improvements made to life span we might even see/live it!

 

[Snobike Mike]

Do you consider anyone who is concerned by climate change to be an "alarmist"?

Or is it possible to be reasonably concerned for the environment for legitimate reasons?

Since the title of this thread is "the end is nigh" and we've been discussing blowhards such as Al Gore.

Alarmists are those that wish to come up with all kinds of complicated taxation and restriction based solutions to the "problem" of MMGW which has now be changed to "climate change".

So the question still remains: Why is climate change bad?

 

[Snobike Mike]

Sea level. Due to the melting polar ice caps

That alone would ruin tons of lives.

Sea ice is increasing not decreasing. Should we stop this "climate change"?

It’s only fall in the south pole, and sea ice levels are on the rise.

But this year, Antarctica’s sea ice coverage is way above average and is even breaking records set in 2014. In April, South Pole sea ice extent averaged 3.5 million square miles — the highest extent for that month on record. The National Snow and Ice Data Center reports that “April extent was 300,000 square kilometers (116,000 square miles) higher than the previous record observed in 2014, and 1.70 million square kilometers (656,000 square miles) above the 1981 to 2010 long-term average.”
Source: NSIDC, http://nsidc.org/

Source: NSIDC, http://nsidc.org/

Increasing Antarctic sea ice extent has confounded scientists in recent years, since most climate models predicted South Pole sea ice coverage would decrease as global warming drove temperatures higher and higher. There are concerns, however, that Antarctica’s massive ice sheets could collapse soon because of warmer air temperatures from above and warm water melting glaciers from below. So, scientists are watching this region with great interest.

Winter is coming! So expect sea ice extent to boom in the Southern Hemisphere.
Source: NSIDC

Source: NSIDC

Tags: Antarctica, National Snow and Ice Data Center

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/19/an...#ixzz3r0HbKzIm

 

[caboose56]

Since the title of this thread is "the end is nigh" and we've been discussing blowhards such as Al Gore.

Alarmists are those that wish to come up with all kinds of complicated taxation and restriction based solutions to the "problem" of MMGW which has now be changed to "climate change".

So the question still remains: Why is climate change bad?

I'm not an alarmist so do you want me to answer? Or are you asking a rhetorical question?

I don't think carbon taxes and restriction based solutions are the best solution. I think we need to be respectful of the environment, keep our water clean, protect our forests and wildlife, etc.

It's a blanket ideology that needs to be adopted by everyone. We need to understand that the continued pillaging of our natural resources is unsustainable and we need to understand that the world is not our garbage dump. Everyone from big corporations (tailing ponds, massive deforestation for grazing land, etc) to individuals (throwing your garbage out the window while driving down the road, wasting food, wasting energy) need to change how they view their impact on the environment.

The idea that we can do what we please (in the name of money) without consequence is really fuckin ignorant.

 

[LePhillou]

Sea ice is increasing not decreasing. Should we stop this "climate change"?

But can you say the same about the north pole?

In the arctic, we're talking about record lows since we (as a species) have started tracking

http://neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov/csb/index.php?section=234

 

[Snobike Mike]

I'm not an alarmist so do you want me to answer? Or are you asking a rhetorical question?

I don't think carbon taxes and restriction based solutions are the best solution. I think we need to be respectful of the environment, keep our water clean, protect our forests and wildlife, etc.

It's a blanket ideology that needs to be adopted by everyone. We need to understand that the continued pillaging of our natural resources is unsustainable and we need to understand that the world is not our garbage dump. Everyone from big corporations (tailing ponds, massive deforestation for grazing land, etc) to individuals (throwing your garbage out the window while driving down the road, wasting food, wasting energy) need to change how they view their impact on the environment.

The idea that we can do what we please (in the name of money) without consequence is really ****in ignorant.

I agree with you.

Having said this, much of what you talk about is about taking care of our environment such as pollution control, not specifically about supposed "MM climate change" which for some reason the alarmists feel need to be stopped at all costs.

So how do we deal with the ever increasingly aggressive "climate change alarmist" groups such world governments that want to have global climate change agreements (like the lame duck one that just occurred in Paris with much fanfare), taxations, and other controls based on false science and hidden agendas?

Or people such as Al Gore who want to punish those that are so-called "climate change deniers"?

 

[caboose56]

I agree with you.

Having said this, much of what you talk about is about taking care of our environment such as pollution control, not specifically about supposed "MM climate change" which for some reason the alarmists feel need to be stopped at all costs.

So how do we deal with the ever increasingly aggressive "climate change alarmist" groups such world governments that want to have global climate change agreements (like the lame duck one that just occurred in Paris with much fanfare), taxations, and other controls based on false science and hidden agendas?

Or people such as Al Gore who want to punish those that are so-called "climate change deniers"?

Maybe a zombpocalypse would fix it?

 

[LePhillou]

Maybe a zombpocalypse would fix it?

Problem is we'd lose some geniuses that aren't streetsmart in the mix.

But while we're at it we might as well use bombs that destroy everything even infrastructure-wise. So we can start over. Ya know?!

 

[CruisnGrrl]

Since the title of this thread is "the end is nigh" and we've been discussing blowhards such as Al Gore.

Alarmists are those that wish to come up with all kinds of complicated taxation and restriction based solutions to the "problem" of MMGW which has now be changed to "climate change".

So the question still remains: Why is climate change bad?

various parts of florida are slowly going underwater. more areas becoming desert means higher food prices... but you probably like paying more for food.

 

[Snobike Mike]

various parts of florida are slowly going underwater. more areas becoming desert means higher food prices... but you probably like paying more for food.

You're paying more for food because of our crappy Cdn $

Back to the original question. Why is climate change bad? Hasn't the climate been changing since the dawn of time? (Answer = Yes)

 

[Snobike Mike]

But can you say the same about the north pole?

In the arctic, we're talking about record lows since we (as a species) have started tracking

http://neptune.gsfc.nasa.gov/csb/index.php?section=234

Normal stuff, climate changes, we go up and down. Nothing to see here

PS: Don't worry about this, Polar bears have seen this before:

Guest essay by Dr. Susan Crockford
A new paper that combines paleoclimatology data for the last 56 million years with molecular genetic evidence concludes there were no biological extinctions over the last 1.5M years despite profound Arctic sea ice changes that included ice-free summers: polar bears, seals, walrus and other species successfully adapted to habitat changes that exceeded those predicted by USGS and US Fish and Wildlife polar bear biologists over the next 100 years.

healy-aug-24-2015-polar-bear-v-tim-kenna

Cronin, T. M. and Cronin, M.A. 2015. Biological response to climate change in the Arctic Ocean: the view from the past. Arktos 1:1-18 [Open access] http://link.springer.com/article/10....063-015-0019-3

Thomas Cronin is a USGS paleoclimatologist at the Eastern Geology and Paleoclimate Science Center, and Matthew Cronin is a molecular geneticist at the University of Alaska Fairbanks (see previous postshere and here about Matt’s work on the genetics of polar bear evolution).

From the Abstract:

Arctic climatic extremes include 25°C hyperthermal periods during the Paleocene-Eocene (56–46 million years ago, Ma), Quaternary glacial periods when thick ice shelves and sea ice cover rendered the Arctic Ocean nearly uninhabitable, seasonally sea-ice-free interglacials and abrupt climate reversals.
The final discussion and two summary graphics from this paper (copied below) are especially useful:

The Cenozoic ecosystem changes in the Arctic described above are summarized in Figs. 5 and 6 within the context of climate changes over different timescales. Several conclusions can be made.

First, a seasonally ice-free marginal and central Arctic Ocean was common not only during Greenhouse worlds of PETM and Early Eocene, but also during the Pliocene, the early Quaternary before the Mid-Pleistocene Transition, during MIS 11, MIS 5 and regionally during the early Holocene.

During orbital climatic cycles of the last few hundred thousand years, interglacial periods were characterized by perennial and at times seasonal sea ice cover and inhabited by marine ecosystems similar to those of the pre-industrial Holocene. Some species thought to be dependent on summer sea ice (e.g., polar bears) survived through these periods.

In contrast, during glacial periods the much smaller Arctic Ocean and much of the adjacent continents were covered with massive ice sheets, thick ice shelves, and sea ice making large regions virtually uninhabitable to most species that inhabit today’s Arctic.

Despite the scale, frequency and rapidity of Quaternary climate changes, Arctic marine ecosystems associated with sea-ice habitats were extremely resilient, adapting through geographic range expansion into the Arctic during warm periods, and south into extra-Arctic regions during glacial periods. The stratigraphic record of the last 1.5 Ma indicates that no marine species’ extinction events occurred despite major climate oscillations.

The Cenozoic sedimentary record is too incomplete to conclude that large climate transitions caused extinction of Arctic species, but hopefully future IODP coring will recover more complete records. More generally, future cross-discipline studies of Arctic species and ecosystems combining molecular methods and paleoclimate reconstructions will result in a better understanding of how biological systems respond to climate changes. [my bold]
Cronin and Cronin 2015 Fig. 5: Summary of Arctic Ocean biological and climatic events during the Cenozoic. Blue letters are marine mammal events, red are climatic events, green are biological events. See text and Supplementary Tables 1–3 and Supplementary references for sources.

Cronin and Cronin 2015_fig5

Cronin and Cronin 2015 Fig. 6: Summary of Arctic Ocean biological and climatic events during mid-to-late Quaternary orbital glacial-interglacial cycles. Blue letters are marine mammal events, red are climatic events, green are biological events. See text and Supplementary Tables 1–3 and Supplementary references for sources

Cronin and Cronin 2015_fig6

——————————

Compare above to my previous post here on my estimate of sea ice coverage at the height of the last Ice Age (Last Glacial Maximum, copied below):

NH Perennial and Annual Ice at LGM_JFBaichtal_PolarBearScience_sm

Figure 2. Approximate sea ice extent at the Last Glacial Maximum: blue is perennial sea ice (present year round) and white is seasonal sea ice at its maximum (late winter). Purple is open ocean; black and dark grey are continental ice sheets; cream areas are land bridges exposed by lower sea level. Sea ice added by J.F. Baichtal, from this image, labels added by SJ Crockford. Click to enlarge.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/01/...een-it-all-before-including-ice-free-summers/

 

[caboose56]

You're paying more for food because of our crappy Cdn $

Back to the original question. Why is climate change bad? Hasn't the climate been changing since the dawn of time? (Answer = Yes)

Well, it's possible that we won't be able to grow enough food if the climate does change. Or have enough water?

Whether it's caused by us or not... The climate is dynamic..

 

[jc100]

Nobody denies that the climate changes naturally....what's happening is that we are accelerating the changes. Even if you forget climate change for a moment, we are pumping particulates into the atmosphere at an alarming rate such that pollution increases year on year. Slow down on burning dirty fuels and you decrease the effect to both climate and pollution.

 

[-D-]

One thing that seems to escape some people...nature did not make cars and Styrofoam.
What about all the mad made chemicals?
All the used tires, all the plastic, etc...

How is an ecosystem that created itself to sustain itself and all things within it...and now we throw in all these other things e.g. coal burning power plants and we as dumb humans are unable to be open the idea that we are causing damage.

I would love for them to lock themselves in their garage, put the car outside, leave it running, connect a tiny hose from car exhaust and run it into the garage.

All of this talk is pointless. The earth will fix itself, just as your body protects itself when you have a cold or the flue.

 

[CruisnGrrl]

You're paying more for food because of our crappy Cdn $

Back to the original question. Why is climate change bad? Hasn't the climate been changing since the dawn of time? (Answer = Yes)

I don't know if you noticed but california and other places had severe drought this past summer. Many crops failed. Climate has changed in the past and we ended up with mass extinction.

 

[gsxr guy]

I don't know if you noticed but california and other places had severe drought this past summer. Many crops failed. Climate has changed in the past and we ended up with mass extinction.

We can only hope for mass extinction, its the only way to solve the problem. Get rid of the human race that's destroying the planet. And 10,000 years from now the planet will be fixed.

 

[jc100]

One thing that seems to escape some people...nature did not make cars and Styrofoam.
What about all the mad made chemicals?
All the used tires, all the plastic, etc...

How is an ecosystem that created itself to sustain itself and all things within it...and now we throw in all these other things e.g. coal burning power plants and we as dumb humans are unable to be open the idea that we are causing damage.

I would love for them to lock themselves in their garage, put the car outside, leave it running, connect a tiny hose from car exhaust and run it into the garage.

All of this talk is pointless. The earth will fix itself, just as your body protects itself when you have a cold or the flue.

Many foams are foams because CO2 (and other gasses) is pumped into the polymer as it forms...when the foams break down they also release CO2. Probably not a big release compared to fossil fuel burning but it's there nonetheless.

 

[LePhillou]

Normal stuff, climate changes, we go up and down. Nothing to see here

PS: Don't worry about this, Polar bears have seen this before:

You seem overly confident that all those ups and downs are capped. And that nothing at all can influence them in a better or worse way. And if we go with the cyclic theory of unpredictable variations in our climate, shouldn't that be scary? And shouldn't we try to do the best we can not to add more catalysts that might worsen the process?

But i guess i can see some parallels with other cases (yes that would be something "for your case"

The ozone hole was seen as a "hot issue" and imminent risk[SUP][31][/SUP] as lay people feared severe personal consequences such skin cancer, cataracts, damage to plants, and reduction of plankton populations in the ocean's photic zone. Not only on the policy level, ozone regulation compared to climate change fared much better in public opinion. Americans voluntarily switched away from aerosol sprays before legislation was enforced, while climate change failed to achieve comparable concern and public action.

In the end we gotta change and adapt. As whether climate change is human made or not this time around, we're definitely not helping ourselves as a species in terms of sustainability.

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