The Bad Riders of Ontario Thread

[kurtrules]

The more realistic the simulator, the more your body reacts as if it was a real situation. Think about a monster jumping out in a movie theatre. Obviously you are at zero risk of having your face eaten but many people still scream and jump.

Correct. However, the mind still knows it is in a simulator. The impact of threat perception and presence on emotional responses may change in comparing both situations. It's interesting to see how/can VR accommodate such variances.

 

[油井緋色]

Correct. However, the mind still knows it is in a simulator. The impact of threat perception and presence on emotional responses may change in comparing both situations. It's interesting to see how/can VR accommodate such variances.

Do you have any experience with expensive VR*?

My heart rate still goes up as soon as a race begins on iRacing and stays around 130. My resting heart rate is 60 and I am extremely fit. I have to wear a headband because by the time I am done, my arms are shaking from adrenaline (and the force feedback, which is strong enough to injure you), and I am drenched in sweat. I do not have a full motion rig but I once I do, I'll need a harness and start engaging my core.

The above reaction isn't different from the few track days I had where buddies and I decided to try and kill each other lol. Also, I recently had a sim race with a friend where we were going side by side. The emotional reaction I felt was the exact same I had irl when buddies and I were trying to pass each other on Grand Bend with "**** YOU" eyes while we were side by side.

Also crashing has the same effect as crashing in real life. When you're competitive enough, you do not give a **** about injury. The only thought you'll have when you crash is "****, I'm out of the race and cannot race."

My first few virtual laps of Laguna Seca led to involuntary ass clenching as I approached the 2-floor corkscrew drop.

-------------------------------

The above is for simulation. With regards to video games....https://store.steampowered.com/app/739630/Phasmophobia/

My friends refuse to play the above in VR. I play it in VR for one reason: my monitor does not make crouch down and hide in fear because a ghost is gonna rape me lol

*We're talking high-end PC + headset + simulation rig, not a phone or console.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Do you think that after that sim racing you can drive the real thing at those same speeds to the same results?

 

[GreyGhost]

Do you think that after that sim racing you can drive the real thing at those same speeds to the same results?

A few can. There have been at least a few sim competitions that put the winners into real cars and they did reasonably well. The downside IIRC was most of the sim racers weren't physically fit enough to deal with the violence of a fast car driven in anger. They could do a few hot laps but couldn't keep up the pace in a real car.

I suspect a bike translates much worse. Lots of body english on a bike that is never needed nor learned in a sim.

 

[油井緋色]

Do you think that after that sim racing you can drive the real thing at those same speeds to the same results?

Personally, no.

But he literally did: https://www.youtube.com/user/jimski10

My issue is I come from a 2 wheel background. Our lines, braking, and throttle points are all different (motorcycles brake SIGNIFICANTLY slower than cars, and our cornering speed has trouble with GT3 and GT4 cars, forget Formula types.) While I am extremely proud of myself for drifting my friend's STI with no experience driving manual or drifting a car on my first attempt (theory from motorcycling and simulation games do transfer), I would get ****** on track, no contest or debate, by anyone who has experience.

With that said, my mind is acclimated to speeds up to 300km/h~ from both real life and sim. I also do not get scared of g-forces. My experience from motorcycling and sim racing would allow me to obliterate the average Joe who has no experience and is jumping onto any of these sports. I would also very likely learn far faster than the average person because I have something relative as a mental anchor.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

A few can. There have been at least a few sim competitions that put the winners into real cars and they did reasonably well.

Gran Turismo Academy was the first.

 

[kurtrules]

Do you have any experience with expensive VR*?

My heart rate still goes up as soon as a race begins on iRacing and stays around 130. My resting heart rate is 60 and I am extremely fit. I have to wear a headband because by the time I am done, my arms are shaking from adrenaline (and the force feedback, which is strong enough to injure you), and I am drenched in sweat. I do not have a full motion rig but I once I do, I'll need a harness and start engaging my core.

The above reaction isn't different from the few track days I had where buddies and I decided to try and kill each other lol. Also, I recently had a sim race with a friend where we were going side by side. The emotional reaction I felt was the exact same I had irl when buddies and I were trying to pass each other on Grand Bend with "**** YOU" eyes while we were side by side.

Also crashing has the same effect as crashing in real life. When you're competitive enough, you do not give a **** about injury. The only thought you'll have when you crash is "****, I'm out of the race and cannot race."

My first few virtual laps of Laguna Seca led to involuntary ass clenching as I approached the 2-floor corkscrew drop.

-------------------------------

The above is for simulation. With regards to video games....https://store.steampowered.com/app/739630/Phasmophobia/

My friends refuse to play the above in VR. I play it in VR for one reason: my monitor does not make crouch down and hide in fear because a ghost is gonna rape me lol

*We're talking high-end PC + headset + simulation rig, not a phone or console.

I donot have experience with expensive VR, but I am doing my research on VR as we are building a IT digital transformation roadmap for a retail client and one of the objectives is equipping VR enabled kiosks in smart stores. So this helps.

Anyways, I digress.

It's an interesting perspective that you share - "my arms are shaking from adrenaline (and the force feedback, which is strong enough to injure you), and I am drenched in sweat" which let's me believe that there is a lot more connection at a mental & emotional level that I had previously assumed, so thank you for sharing that.

Also the statement - "crashing has the same effect as crashing in real life. When you're competitive enough, you do not give a **** about injury" is one that I cannot agree with for a few reasons:

1. Most of us do-not do competitive racing, and for those reasons, we are not competitive enough and thus do care about injuring ourselves. This may be more relevant for those extensively into track days and racing, but even their body feels intense pain that is produced when skin drags on asphalt.

2. Crashing in real life does not have the same effect as crashing on a simulator. Or should I say crashing from a motorcycle does not have the same effect. I can say that because I have had many such incidents - I will give you a real life example. I was riding on a mountainous road in the upper Himalayas about 10000 above sea level. It was a bright and sunny day and the sky was clear. I leaned into a corner that took me on the darker side of the mountain. Lo and Behold, there was a ton of black ice on the other side. I straightened up immediately and tried to control, but it was too late. My CB150 and I lay flat on the ice skidding towards the cliff which had a substantial drop. The surge of emotions, the horror & terror, the panic and the immense fear that swept through my body in those two seconds is unexplainable. We hit a tree, and were saved from being flung over.

And I donot believe I can experience that on a VR Simulation. If you can prove to me that I am wrong, and a VR can allow me to experience the same agony, I stand corrected.

 

[油井緋色]

Also the statement - "crashing has the same effect as crashing in real life. When you're competitive enough, you do not give a **** about injury" is one that I cannot agree with for a few reasons:

1. Most of us do-not do competitive racing, and for those reasons, we are not competitive enough and thus do care about injuring ourselves. This may be more relevant for those extensively into track days and racing, but even their body feels intense pain that is produced when skin drags on asphalt.

2. Crashing in real life does not have the same effect as crashing on a simulator. Or should I say crashing from a motorcycle does not have the same effect. I can say that because I have had many such incidents - I will give you a real life example. I was riding on a mountainous road in the upper Himalayas about 10000 above sea level. It was a bright and sunny day and the sky was clear. I leaned into a corner that took me on the darker side of the mountain. Lo and Behold, there was a ton of black ice on the other side. I straightened up immediately and tried to control, but it was too late. My CB150 and I lay flat on the ice skidding towards the cliff which had a substantial drop. The surge of emotions, the horror & terror, the panic and the immense fear that swept through my body in those two seconds is unexplainable. We hit a tree, and were saved from being flung over.

And I donot believe I can experience that on a VR Simulation. If you can prove to me that I am wrong, and a VR can allow me to experience the same agony, I stand corrected.

I should've prefixed this with "personal experience." My real experience tie in with crashing was at Mosport RDT. It wasn't even a race, just a track day. When I highsided onto the floor, my first thought was not "I am in huge ******* pain", it was "why am I uncontrollably breathing", followed by "****, I'M DONE!" when I saw the front fork and triple clamp connection snapped in half.

I didn't actually realize I was in pain until I tried standing up and fell back on my ass due to the pain. Didn't even know my clavicle was snapped in 3 pieces until I checked it with my good arm and found the entire clavicle gone.

Combine the above experience with a lot of real racers saying "if you are afraid, you should retire" and you may understand where I'm coming from. I also had PTSD after where I'd hallucinate crashing every time I turned right. I literally could not drag knee anymore without involuntary muscle lock ups from fear.

Another common sense thing that I forget is not common sense: if you are serious about getting faster, you will regularly crash. Crashing should not be something you are worried about and it should 100% not scare you. In order to find your limits, you must go past them. When you go past them too much, you crash.

 

[mimico_polak]

Just for kicks I checked Kijiji for SIM racing setups…..wow. From $250 (for a McGyver frame with garbage seat) to a 10k full system.

a few nice (for a casual observer) units in the 1-2k range. I can see myself trying it out if I get rid of the bike and want a speed fix.

 

[油井緋色]

Just for kicks I checked Kijiji for SIM racing setups…..wow. From $250 (for a McGyver frame with garbage seat) to a 10k full system.

a few nice (for a casual observer) units in the 1-2k range. I can see myself trying it out if I get rid of the bike and want a speed fix.

It's significantly cheaper than riding for sure.

The ideal mid to mid-high tier build would be:

Computer + VR Portion
Pimax or Valve Index ($1500)
Geforce 3080 or similar ($2000~)
Not-****-Every-Other-Computer-Component ($1500)

Simulation Hardware
Direct Drive motor ($500!!! Fanatec made a cheaper one!)
Wheel ($300)
Pedals ($300)
Car Seat ($0 - $1000)
Simulation rig ($700)

$6,800 in total after tax.

GSXR750 was $7500 + yearly insurance + $300/track day + maintenance + cry when you crash and get ****** if you totaled it.

EDIT: Upgrade paths involve a full motion system, and a stronger direct drive wheel ($10000~ combined or so I believe.) Triple ultrawide or super ultrawide monitors ($6000+) would beat VR but we're getting into "I'm not sure if hardware exists to run this" problem.

 

[GreyGhost]

It's significantly cheaper than riding for sure.

The ideal mid to mid-high tier build would be:

Computer + VR Portion
Pimax or Valve Index ($1500)
Geforce 3080 or similar ($2000~)
Not-****-Every-Other-Computer-Component ($1500)

Simulation Hardware
Direct Drive motor ($500!!! Fanatec made a cheaper one!)
Wheel ($300)
Pedals ($300)
Car Seat ($0 - $1000)
Simulation rig ($700)

$6,800 in total after tax.

GSXR750 was $7500 + yearly insurance + $300/track day + maintenance + cry when you crash and get ****** if you totaled it.

EDIT: Upgrade paths involve a full motion system, and a stronger direct drive wheel ($10000~ combined or so I believe.) Triple ultrawide or super ultrawide monitors ($6000+) would beat VR but we're getting into "I'm not sure if hardware exists to run this" problem.

Aren't most of the software programs that you want to sim race in subscription based?

EDIT:
Do you need triple 4K+ monitors? Would 4k+ for primary display and less for peripheral displays work? You still have your hardware issue as running different resolutions across screens may not be supported.

 

[油井緋色]

Aren't most of the software programs that you want to sim race in subscription based?

It's literally iRacing or bust for the competitive scene, but good point. I don't rmb how much iRacing cost but I didn't care because track days are so much worse lol

There are other simulations that are super fun though:

Dirt Rally (VR)
Wanna play Initial D in real life and see how hard it is? Have fun rolling off a cliff on the first turn only to finally get around and roll off the next cliff instead.

Formula One 20xx (Flat Screen)
Yearly released game with a great role playing F1 experience without murdering the game via RPG stat points (your skill > the stat point always.)

Assetto Corsa Competizione (Flat Screen with **** VR support)
GT4 and GT3 cars only. Racing (the community, not the physics) is nowhere near as tight as iRacing but graphics and UX are miles ahead of iRacing's dated legacy ****.

 

[mimico_polak]

I may end up getting a wheel and pedals as a start but would def prefer one with a shifter (paddles if that’s an option also).

Hardest part will be keeping the pedals from moving but I’m sure it can be figured out with time. I’m quite resourceful as I’m cheap! LoL

 

[油井緋色]

I may end up getting a wheel and pedals as a start but would def prefer one with a shifter (paddles if that’s an option also).

Hardest part will be keeping the pedals from moving but I’m sure it can be figured out with time. I’m quite resourceful as I’m cheap! LoL

Shifter is another $400~

It's optional IMO as all wheels have paddle shifters. I still want a shifter but that's only to blast ****** eurobeats and pretend I'm in this anime:
YouTube _--BVXf8loc

 

[GreyGhost]

I may end up getting a wheel and pedals as a start but would def prefer one with a shifter (paddles if that’s an option also).

Hardest part will be keeping the pedals from moving but I’m sure it can be figured out with time. I’m quite resourceful as I’m cheap! LoL

I have driving force GT which is probably the cheapest reasonable option (well it was at the time, I haven't looked at current offerings). No H-shift, sequential only (paddles and shifter included). No clutch. Pedals have teeth to dig into carpet or you can attach them to a board. I use a TV table with the wheel on it and the pedals dug into the carpet and against the table. Good enough. Just springs in the pedals, no useful force feedback in them (which also makes restraining the pedals easier). Wheel FF is a bit notchy and more expensive options are clearly better but it is an order of magnitude cheaper than the "good" solution.

 

[mimico_polak]

I have driving force GT which is probably the cheapest reasonable option (well it was at the time, I haven't looked at current offerings). No H-shift, sequential only (paddles and shifter included). No clutch. Pedals have teeth to dig into carpet or you can attach them to a board. I use a TV table with the wheel on it and the pedals dug into the carpet and against the table. Good enough. Just springs in the pedals, no useful force feedback in them (which also makes restraining the pedals easier). Wheel FF is a bit notchy and more expensive options are clearly better but it is an order of magnitude cheaper than the "good" solution.

Literally looking at G29 wheel and pedal setups on Kijiji. LoL.

I’ve got a few racing games on PS4 and they’re cheap now so could get back into it for winter.

 

[油井緋色]

Literally looking at G29 wheel and pedal setups on Kijiji. LoL.

I’ve got a few racing games on PS4 and they’re cheap now so could get back into it for winter.

I would not recommend the G29 simply because it's crap from a simulation perspective.

However, you can 100% get competent with it and it'll transfer to both irl and your next rig....and you can't beat it's price considering it's G29 or $1000+ lol

 

[nm1]

I should've prefixed this with "personal experience." My real experience tie in with crashing was at Mosport RDT. It wasn't even a race, just a track day. When I highsided onto the floor, my first thought was not "I am in huge ******* pain", it was "why am I uncontrollably breathing", followed by "****, I'M DONE!" when I saw the front fork and triple clamp connection snapped in half.

I didn't actually realize I was in pain until I tried standing up and fell back on my ass due to the pain. Didn't even know my clavicle was snapped in 3 pieces until I checked it with my good arm and found the entire clavicle gone.

Combine the above experience with a lot of real racers saying "if you are afraid, you should retire" and you may understand where I'm coming from. I also had PTSD after where I'd hallucinate crashing every time I turned right. I literally could not drag knee anymore without involuntary muscle lock ups from fear.

Another common sense thing that I forget is not common sense: if you are serious about getting faster, you will regularly crash. Crashing should not be something you are worried about and it should 100% not scare you. In order to find your limits, you must go past them. When you go past them too much, you crash.

overcoming fear is a real problem both for 4 wheels and 2

it's much easier in a car but you shouldn't assume adrenaline will chase it away for either one

if anything you need to find a way to minimize your adrenaline and stay calm

that "shaking" you're talking about - if you were doing real life racing you'd need to find a way to overcome that and mostly eliminate it or you'd become fatigued really quickly even in a sprint race

---

you mentioned funding - it sounds like you're really into the sport - one of the lemons races I did I didn't even know the guys and just sent them my "driving resume" (a brief description of previous races I was in, and the fact that I owned + serviced the car they were planning to race and knew how to drive it fast) and then paid 600 bucks + flight/stay to goto NH to race

just do that (arrive + drive) or get some buddies together and build a car - you're really missing out doing only sims

 

[bakaboy]

So you've had zero track experience and tried refuting my point with regards to using an "absolute control, focus within" mindset, responded with massive disrespect unprovoked, got butthurt about my comment "race me online", and failed to gaslight me into invalidating my personal experience when trying to get faster by mixing the two.

....yet you have zero experience with what I'm referring to. **** off.

GTAM is becoming weak entertainment

Years past would we not already know about the track config, date and # of laps to settle the online exchanges.

 

[LePhillou]

Can we get back to the subject at hand which is laughing at $hitty motorcyclists, please?