The 2024 Great GTAM Blackout

[GreyGhost]

I walked around my neighborhood and was surprised at the number of generators running... I'm completely off-grid at the cottage, but I have no resiliency in the city. I was without power until about midnight and it made me re-think investing in some sort of backup for the house.

I looked into it 2 years ago when the greener homes grant was starting, but the only solar connected battery-backup system that was allowable at the time (at least in your house and not in some detached shed) were lead-acid, and there was no way I was going to spend money (not even government money) on that outdated battery tech when LiFePo4 was/is the next big thing for EV and off-grid energy storage.

Maybe things have changed in the last 2 years, but I kind of doubt it. Very silly restrictions on lithium technology compared to lead acid... probably just fear factor, but lead acid vents dangerous gasses and lithium does not (unless of course they combust but that's very rare for lithium iron phosphate) so I don't get it.

I hate the idea of a loud smelly gas generator running in my backyard, so that got me thinking of building a "portable" 5 or 10 kW "hand truck" system... a small 5 or 10 kW inverter that I can wheel out and connect to as many parallel LiFePo4 battery banks (via busbar) as I need. Get an electrician to install a manual transfer switch and generator inlet box, then just wire my inverter with the same connector needed for the generator input.

I can store as many battery banks as needed in my garage with no worry about red-tape or chemistry restrictions. Not an automatic-transfer system or anything, but something easy enough to switch over to when the grid goes down for an extended period.

I'm mostly with you. I have zero desire for an annoying generator but a battery bank and inverter seems appealing. They really locked down the requirements so a permanent solution is miles from financially viable (only fully certified packaged systems are allowed, cannot be installed below grade, etc etc). If you are serious about this, I would investigate a two-direction BEV. I am pretty sure Kia/Hyundai are doing this. I'm not sure who else. The biggest cost of the system is the batteries and if they are only used occasionally, the cost per kwh used is beyond astronomical and rolling out a smelly generator will be an order of magnitude (or more) cheaper. Using a BEV lets you use the expensive batteries for thousands of cycles instead of a literal handful.

FWIW, I only have an EU2000. That can run the furnace, a fridge and some lights/entertainment. Quiet, easy on gas and good enough. I can't use 240V anything and it isn't business as usual on emergency power but I'm also not worried about expensive issues like food spoiling or water intruding with no way to mitigate the issue.

 

[Xhumeka]

If you are serious about this, I would investigate a two-direction BEV. I am pretty sure Kia/Hyundai are doing this. I'm not sure who else.

Yes, 100 percent. I'm chomping at the bit for the electric RAM... for my driving needs I'm not at all concerned about range nor charging, and it's projected HUGE battery bank (optional 230 kWh bank!!) would be all I'd need for my city/cottage needs.

To put that in perspective, I have a 20 kWh battery bank at my cottage and it suits my off-grid needs perfectly.

That being said, prices for building your own banks have came down substantially... last month I placed an order from China for another 8 cells to make a 24v DIY battery bank. These are the new Eve cells that are testing at 330 Ah each! Just over $1000 CAD including delivery for over 8kWh battery bank - lead acid is dead!!

 

[GreyGhost]

Yes, 100 percent. I'm chomping at the bit for the electric RAM... for my driving needs I'm not at all concerned about range nor charging, and it's projected HUGE battery bank (optional 230 kW bank!!) would be all I'd need for my city/cottage needs.

To put that in perspective, I have a 20 kW battery bank at my cottage and it suits my off-grid needs perfectly.

That being said, prices for building your own banks have came down substantially... last month I placed an order from China for another 8 cells to make a DIY battery bank. These are the new Eve cells that are testing at 330 Ah each! Just over $1000 CAD including delivery for over 8kW battery bank - lead acid is dead!!

View attachment 68838

Explicitly not allowed anymore. I was looking for BEV packs to build one and no bueno. If you build your own, you either need to use lead acid or have total capacity under 1kwh. All equipment must be individually approved. Buying cells or a used BEV pack means it will be an ESA violation.

https://esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Electrical_Safety_Products/Bulletins/64-7-2.pdf

 

[Xhumeka]

That's if I have it all hooked up permanently to my system... there's no rules to my knowledge about storing your own DIY packs anywhere in your house/garage. That's why I was thinking of the "inverter on a handtruck" rig - i'm just using it as a portable generator and hooking it up when needed to my house via genny inlet. That would be fine no?

 

[FullMotoJacket]

That's if I have it all hooked up permanently to my system... there's no rules to my knowledge about storing your own DIY packs anywhere in your house/garage. That's why I was thinking of the "inverter on a handtruck" rig - i'm just using it as a portable generator and hooking it up when needed to my house via genny inlet. That would be fine no?

Might wanna run that by your insurance broker.

 

[GreyGhost]

That's if I have it all hooked up permanently to my system... there's no rules to my knowledge about storing your own DIY packs anywhere in your house/garage. That's why I was thinking of the "inverter on a handtruck" rig - i'm just using it as a portable generator and hooking it up when needed to my house via genny inlet. That would be fine no?

Good question. I am not an electrician. This part of that document would concern me. Does interconnection only apply to grid-tied batteries? Does a generator receptacle comply with ESA and if you plug a battery in, that's exempt?

"Interconnection of energy storage systems, whether self-contained or other, shall be inaccordance with supply authority requirements as per Rule 84-002. Additionally, aconnection authorization is required as per ESA processes. For more information, referto Bulletin 84-1-*, Interconnection of electric power production sources"

My suspicion is if you ask ESA and/or your insurance company, they will tell you to F off and buy a manufactured solution for tens of thousands of dollars. There is another ESA document that addresses BESS and in short, they are a hard no in your house or attached garage (they need to be certified for residential and none are available with that certification) and soft no for detached buildings where they must be certified.

I like your DIY idea and I really wanted to do something similar but the regulatory/insurance road blocks killed the plan for me until things change.

 

[Xhumeka]

Interesting points and I think i'll bring it up with my insurance and see what they say. I guess it boils down to what is allowed to be plugged into a generator inlet, and what type/total-size of battery banks are allowed to be stored indoors.

The genny inlet issue I think is more cut-and-dry... if the transfer switch/solution and the inlet are up to spec, it shouldn't matter _what_ is plugged into it since the grid/backfeed protection comes from those, not the generator. I'll definitely have to research more before doing anything DIY, that's for sure.

The BLUETTI and Jackery "portable generators" are really starting to take off... they are basically a consumer version of what I describe above on a much smaller scale. I'll have to see if they have any sort of certifications that comply with ESA requirements, and if these type of battery-powered generators are allowed to be plugged into a generator inlet.

 

[backmarkerducati]

I looked into home back-up in depth a few times. In the city, worse case in the last 20 years has been a couple of days, inconvenient yes, but I can deal with that. This one was maybe 4 hours for us.

If I had power to my boiler to run it, that is all I likely really need during an ice storm. The rest meh, I can get by.

A natural gas generator makes some noise but they are not that loud, and they only run when testing or during a power outage. My issue is more where to put it in the yard for it not to be a huge eyesore. Natural gas is the way to go vs Diesel or worse yet gasoline. Sure there is the corner case where NG is out...but usually if that is the concern there are bigger problems (war, zombies, etc.).

Portable units are much louder. There are also the safety risks (putting legality aside) if you want to power your house with one. First, you need to make sure to not back feed the grid, since there is no transfer switch you need to make sure, say, the main breakers are off. Next, how to connect it, if it is a 120v/240v one someone may make a suicide cord/plug and plug it into say a 14-50R (stove outlet) installed as an EV charger outlet or in the garage (welder...) to back feed the house. They call them suicide cords for a reason. Overloading it is easy with AC. Many think, "well I know better and can do those things without dying", what if you are out of town when the power goes out and spouse or kids end up trying... Then, it sits for X years, will it start... Just plugging in the fridge or whatever but then I need to have a cord running into the house, etc. I just don't see the reward.

 

[GreyGhost]

I looked into home back-up in depth a few times. In the city, worse case in the last 20 years has been a couple of days, inconvenient yes, but I can deal with that. This one was maybe 4 hours for us.

If I had power to my boiler to run it, that is all I likely really need during an ice storm. The rest meh, I can get by.

A natural gas generator makes some noise but they are not that loud, and they only run when testing or during a power outage. My issue is more where to put it in the yard for it not to be a huge eyesore. Natural gas is the way to go vs Diesel or worse yet gasoline. Sure there is the corner case where NG is out...but usually if that is the concern there are bigger problems (zombies, etc.).

Portable units are much louder. There are also the safety risks (putting legality aside) if you want to power your house with one. First, you need to make sure to not back feed the grid, since there is no transfer switch you need to make sure, say, the main breakers are off. Next, how to connect it, if it is a 120v/240v one someone may make a suicide cord/plug and plug it into say a 14-50R (stove outlet) installed as an EV charger outlet or in the garage (welder...) to back feed the house. They call them suicide cords for a reason. Overloading it is easy with AC. Many think, "well I know better and can do those things without dying", what if you are out of town when the power goes out and spouse or kids end up trying... Then, it sits for X years, will it start... Just plugging in the fridge or whatever but then I need to have a cord running into the house, etc. I just don't see the reward.

Natural gas is better for a lot of reasons but at a much higher upfront cost. I agree, if NG is out, there are much bigger problems than my house.

As for the loudness, many of the NG standby generators are just as bad as the worst portable generators. They are large air-cooled generators with environmental protection but very minimal sound attenuation. Liquid-cooled generators are available that tend to be much quieter but at double the money very few are installed. I have never seen an inverter standby generator (they already cost a lot, might as well do the cheapest possible solution). Inverter portable generators will be the quietest affordable solution by a large margin (but limited to 8kW or so which is substantially less than most permanently installed standby generators).

I completely agree with you about a proper tie-in/transfer solution. There are a number of solutions allowing easy and safe tie-in of a portable generator. The most common two are probably a manual transfer switch with exterior generator connection or a generlink meter base. For most people, most of the time, an extension cord to the fridge is simple and sufficient but ESA makes it hard to operate your furnace with a portable generator and no transfer switch.

 

[Mad Mike]

I walked around my neighborhood and was surprised at the number of generators running... I'm completely off-grid at the cottage, but I have no resiliency in the city. I was without power until about midnight and it made me re-think investing in some sort of backup for the house.
...

Cheap and Easy. A backup Gennie in your Toronto house may not have 24hours use in the last 50 years.

I have a small 2KW Honda Inverter - lightweight, very quiet, fuel-efficient, and will run anything you can plug into a single 15A 120VAC circuit which is 99% of what I need it for. It was expensive, $1500 on a Honda sale.

But it's too small to run the house so I keep an inexpensive 6500w conventional Gennie for house emergency power. It will run the critical system in my house noisily for 3l/hr in gasoline - it cost me $725 out the door. I couldn't justify the 6KW Honda Inverter type @$6000 out the door.

 

[GreyGhost]

Cheap and Easy. A backup Gennie in your Toronto house may not have 24hours use in the last 50 years.

Xmas ice storm about 10 years ago had a bunch of toronto out for most of a week. Now, if I am running a portable generator, it is normally only running for an hour every 8 or so. Let furnace and fridges get back to temp, charge some device batteries and lights and then back to darkness.

I could have a free Champion 10kw but I don't want it. It's loud, heavy and annoying. I don't see using it enough times to waste the space storing it. In the last six years, I have used the small honda once and that wasn't necessary but wasn't sure how long the outage would last and house was cooling off so happy wife, happy life.

 

[Mad Mike]

Xmas ice storm about 10 years ago had a bunch of toronto out for most of a week. Now, if I am running a portable generator, it is normally only running for an hour every 8 or so. Let furnace and fridges get back to temp, charge some device batteries and lights and then back to darkness.

I could have a free Champion 10kw but I don't want it. It's loud, heavy and annoying. I don't see using it enough times to waste the space storing it. In the last six years, I have used the small honda once and that wasn't necessary but wasn't sure how long the outage would last and house was cooling off so happy wife, happy life.

Take the Champion.

I remember that storm, left a few trees on my house.


We lost power for about 8 hours. I ran my big clanker, it kept the furnace, fridge, and TV room powered up nicely.

But what was even better was the summer blackout we had way back. Street was out for 2 days in 30C weather. My 6KW clanker kept my house at a comfortable 19C, and ran the fridges. Can't run AC on a 2000i.

 

[GreyGhost]

. Can't run AC on a 2000i.

Definitely not. No 240 available at all. That does add some complications if you want to use it on a manual transfer switch as it would only light up half the circuits. There are a few ways to solve that. Easiest is to make sure the important circuits all live on one leg. That could cause a load imbalance but important in an emergency and power hungry aren't necessarily correlated (fridge, freezer, furnace, gas water heater, CO/smoke, one light/receptacle per floor). For a normal homeowner that doesn't understand, a 6kw+ with 240V makes the whole thing much simpler. Unless they run their dryer and A/C at the same time, things will probably just work.

 

[nobbie48]

Nothing is simple. If the operator doesn't understand loads the system would need massive capacity. A modest house 100 amp service would need a 24 Kw Generator replacement, along with a suitable fuel supply. A small 2 Kw generator could keep the house running but it would be like musical chairs, switching from the refrigerator, furnace, freezer, lights, five gallon hot water heater. LED lights help.

A 3 Kw generator takes some of the pressure off the switching. It may have 240 volts but not enough amperage to run air conditioning. Inverters don't like compressive loads.

Honda has 3 Kw in the $3000+ range and one as low as 60 pounds. Typically they're double that.

For a long outage fuel is an issue. Is the local gas station operating and how much gas do you want in the shed/garage. If youwant it fresh you dump it in the cage every month and replace.

Outages are sporadic. A dozen years ago a friend was out for a week in Etobicoke. He was closer to the Kipling yard than I was and I was only out for a day.

Motorcyclists tend to be gear heads and could handle the problems. A huge number of people wouldn't now how to handle a generator or refuel it.

Throw in ESA, insurance and municipal approvals and the concept is death by committee.

I have two generators, 2000 and 2500 watts but no gas other than in the cage. I think it has an anti siphon device.

 

[GreyGhost]

I have two generators, 2000 and 2500 watts but no gas other than in the cage. I think it has an anti siphon device.

You're handy enough. Pull a fuel line and you have a powered transfer pump to your generator. Again, not the right approach for the average homeowner. No gas on hand is a downside of switching lawncare to batteries. In the past almost everyone would have at least a few gallons on hand.

 

[SunnY S]

Nothing is simple. If the operator doesn't understand loads the system would need massive capacity. A modest house 100 amp service would need a 24 Kw Generator replacement,

24kw is way overkill. 14kw is all you really need.

If anybody is looking for a deal on a Champion Home Standby, I'm an authorized dealer.

I have a blow out deal, 8.5kw 120/240v home standby NG/propane WiTH fully automatic transfer switch for $3199 plus tax.

brand new in box, 10 year warranty. they are the quietest HSBs on the market.

Check out the reviews, and buy with confidence!

8.5 kW Select Circuit Home Standby Generator and 50A Switch – Champion Power Equipment

Champion’s 8.5-kW Home Standby Generator system provides 24/7 power for your home and peace of mind for you. This fully automatic unit is the quietest-in-class and never needs refueling. Designed to operate in sub-zero temperatures, this unit has a 10-year limited warranty.

www.championpowerequipment.com

 

[Scuba Steve]

24kw is way overkill. 14kw is all you really need.

If anybody is looking for a deal on a Champion Home Standby, I'm an authorized dealer.

I have a blow out deal, 8.5kw 120/240v home standby NG/propane WiTH fully automatic transfer switch for $3199 plus tax.

brand new in box, 10 year warranty. they are the quietest HSBs on the market.

Check out the reviews, and buy with confidence!

8.5 kW Select Circuit Home Standby Generator and 50A Switch – Champion Power Equipment

Champion’s 8.5-kW Home Standby Generator system provides 24/7 power for your home and peace of mind for you. This fully automatic unit is the quietest-in-class and never needs refueling. Designed to operate in sub-zero temperatures, this unit has a 10-year limited warranty.

www.championpowerequipment.com

I have that one at home runs all I need including a large geothermal heat pump. I have it hooked to propane. 8 years old and at 120 hrs no issues but it is on the 3rd set of starting batteries.
I have the auto exercise feature turned off as well got tired of hearing it run every week. So far it hasn't caused any issues I do check it every few months if the power hasn't been out to make sure batteries are good etc.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Sky_high]

24kw is way overkill. 14kw is all you really need.

If anybody is looking for a deal on a Champion Home Standby, I'm an authorized dealer.

I have a blow out deal, 8.5kw 120/240v home standby NG/propane WiTH fully automatic transfer switch for $3199 plus tax.

brand new in box, 10 year warranty. they are the quietest HSBs on the market.

Check out the reviews, and buy with confidence!

8.5 kW Select Circuit Home Standby Generator and 50A Switch – Champion Power Equipment

Champion’s 8.5-kW Home Standby Generator system provides 24/7 power for your home and peace of mind for you. This fully automatic unit is the quietest-in-class and never needs refueling. Designed to operate in sub-zero temperatures, this unit has a 10-year limited warranty.

www.championpowerequipment.com

Hmmm...If only I had a trusted electrician to install this...I'm assuming you need a permit to install, right?

 

[GreyGhost]

Hmmm...If only I had a trusted electrician to install this...I'm assuming you need a permit to install, right?

Your home insurance wants a permit for all electrical. A fire and unpermitted electrical give them an easy out.

You can avoid the electrician and do it yourself with a permit but I assume that warranty is void unless there is an invoice for professional instalation.

 

[Sky_high]

Your home insurance wants a permit for all electrical. A fire and unpermitted electrical give them an easy out.

You can avoid the electrician and do it yourself with a permit but I assume that warranty is void unless there is an invoice for professional instalation.

Does anyone PERSONALLY know a reputable electrician that can install NG generator in the Etobicoke region?