Tell Ontario you want better motorcycle insurance - the petition is live | Page 3 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Tell Ontario you want better motorcycle insurance - the petition is live

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@Mad Mike

So I shared out the petition to another user group, and this is some feedback I go.

"Change dot org petitions are generally a waste of time unless it's meant to put pressure on a publicly traded company. They are not legally recognized in Canada."

" They should be using https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Home/Index as it is the only legally recognized online petition by our government. Any other petition requires handwritten signatures."
 
sburns said:
@Mad Mike

So I shared out the petition to another user group, and this is some feedback I go.

"Change dot org petitions are generally a waste of time unless it's meant to put pressure on a publicly traded company. They are not legally recognized in Canada."

" They should be using https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Home/Index as it is the only legally recognized online petition by our government. Any other petition requires handwritten signatures."
Click to expand...
The site you mention is for federal petitions, this initiative is a provincial matter.

Petitions, whether paper or not, have no official standing with governments other than provoking a response -- that can be as simple as 'not interested'. The point behind petitions is to show organization and to raise the spectre of a fight. The path to victory isn't the petition itself, it's just a tool.

In this case we'll gauge support on a handful of issues, bring the petition results to a sit down with local MPPs. That's when the work gets done.

In the best case scenario we make enough noise to get their attention and to get our items on the agenda. Depending on how gov't of Ontario proceeds with input after Feb 15 will determine what's next. Possibilities include private members bills which takes either an interested MPP to take up the cause, or one who gets pressure to do so. With 300 names on a list we're gonna be applying as much pressure as a mosquito on your forehead -- at 1000 supporters we're getting to the point of influence.

I'm trying to connect with MPP Prabmeet Singh Sarkaria, he wrote Bill 41 the famous helmet law, I'm trying to find out where the leverage came from.
 
^ MPP for Brampton South
so although Sikh riders are small in numbers
there is a large portion of his constituency would see this as a victory
even if they have no interest in motorcycles
 
Mad Mike said:
The site you mention is for federal petitions, this initiative is a provincial matter.

Petitions, whether paper or not, have no official standing with governments other than provoking a response -- that can be as simple as 'not interested'. The point behind petitions is to show organization and to raise the spectre of a fight. The path to victory isn't the petition itself, it's just a tool.

In this case we'll gauge support on a handful of issues, bring the petition results to a sit down with local MPPs. That's when the work gets done.

In the best case scenario we make enough noise to get their attention and to get our items on the agenda. Depending on how gov't of Ontario proceeds with input after Feb 15 will determine what's next. Possibilities include private members bills which takes either an interested MPP to take up the cause, or one who gets pressure to do so. With 300 names on a list we're gonna be applying as much pressure as a mosquito on your forehead -- at 1000 supporters we're getting to the point of influence.

I'm trying to connect with MPP Prabmeet Singh Sarkaria, he wrote Bill 41 the famous helmet law, I'm trying to find out where the leverage came from.
Click to expand...

Hey @Mad Mike thanks for the feed back. I will send this over to the other group.

I have a dumb question. Why are you doing this? I know part of this is obvious to try to get movement on better rates. But maybe you can give some background on you and why. Just a little insight might help encourage this other group I know, if they can connect better with the organizer.
 
sburns said:
Hey @Mad Mike thanks for the feed back. I will send this over to the other group.

I have a dumb question. Why are you doing this? I know part of this is obvious to try to get movement on better rates. But maybe you can give some background on you and why. Just a little insight might help encourage this other group I know, if they can connect better with the organizer.
Click to expand...
Why am I doing this? Great question!

I've always been civic minded and pretty much my whole life I've tried to do things that give back to the community. Over the years I spent a lot of time volunteering with kids sports and other community initiatives. Kids are gone, I still have a bit of a drive to do something and motorcycling has replaced rinks and pitches as my community of interest.

I've been critical of Ontario insurance for a long time -- quite frankly I see it as a rigged system. Using a farmyard analogy, there used to be 2 pigs at the trough -- gov't and insurers -- who worked together to make a system that was easy and profitable for them. Over the last decade a few more pigs have cozied up the trough (lawyers, collision repair industry and rehab services). Gov't and insurers haven't done anything but cooperate on raising rates so they can feed the extra pigs. I think it needs change. I have some time to devote to this, so why not.

I have no more to gain that anyone else -- perhaps cheaper insurance. I pay insurance on 4 bikes and 3 cars I might stand to save a few bucks.
 
JavaFan said:
^ MPP for Brampton South
so although Sikh riders are small in numbers
there is a large portion of his constituency would see this as a victory
even if they have no interest in motorcycles
Click to expand...
I agree, but if you look at Brampton, you'll see that Brampton North, West and Center ridings all were within a few hundred votes in the last election. There's a pretty good argument that
Sarkaria used this issue to help 'punch above his weight' to win Brampton south.

There are 20 of ridings that can be swayed by a few hundred votes, I'm sure each and every one of those ridings has 500 motorcyclists - I'm sure one or more can be found.

Now, that doesn't guarantee anything BUT a groundswell of support and perhaps some better organization might.

Is this a long shot -- hell ya! Is it worth trying - hell ya too.​
 
Like many riders this time of the year, shopping around and comparing quotes feels like a tedious and time-consuming, but necessary, process to obtaining the best rates.

I've spoken with several brokers over the past few days, some who are seasoned riders and have covered fellow motorcyclists for many years in the GTA. If you begin with "I'm shopping around for motorcycle insurance", almost always the first question is "do you have auto insurance with us?" If the answer is "no" the standard expectation is that you consider moving your auto (and/or home) insurance over. Only then can we talk.

Increasingly there seems to be little to no interest in providing standalone motorcycle insurance to riders here in Ontario. The vast majority of agents, brokers and underwriters are simply not interested period. Everything is driven by money. They want you to bundle everything --though oddly if you're looking for standalone auto insurance there is essentially no pressure to 'bundle'. What about motorcyclists who don't own an automobile and who might use their bike(s) as a primary mode of transportation" How did we end up here? The requirement to bundle is predatory and yet another aspect of the insurance industry politicians must audit.
 
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D-J said:
Like many riders this time of the year, shopping around and comparing quotes feels like a tedious and time-consuming, but necessary, process to obtaining the best rates.
Click to expand...
I too check rates this time of year, here is my most recent quote. I'm the only rider in my house. For kicks, I checked with Geico in the USA, got similar coverage on the same 4 bikes and my total was $690USD.


YearMakeModelAnnual KM
MakeSuzukiYamahaYamahaHonda
ModelDL650AXFJR1300A XV920R GL1000
Year
Yamaha201019821976
Annual KM150001000010001000
Bodily Injury / Prop. Damage $ 58 $ 98 $ 68 $ 68 $ 292
Direct Compensation $ 32 $ 49 $ 33 $ 33 $ 147
Accident Benefits $ 562 $ 897 $ 613 $ 613 $ 2,685
Uninsured Automobile
 $ 21 $ 32 $ 22 $ 22 $ 97
#44 Family Protection $ 45 $ 45 $ 45 $ 45 $ 180
Totals $ 718 $ 1,121 $ 781 $ 781 $ 3,401
 
Signed

Sent from my purple G4 using Tapatalk
 
Mad Mike said:
I too check rates this time of year, here is my most recent quote. I'm the only rider in my house. For kicks, I checked with Geico in the USA, got similar coverage on the same 4 bikes and my total was $690USD.


YearMakeModelAnnual KM
MakeSuzukiYamahaYamahaHonda
ModelDL650AXFJR1300A XV920R GL1000
Year
Yamaha201019821976
Annual KM150001000010001000
Bodily Injury / Prop. Damage $ 58 $ 98 $ 68 $ 68 $ 292
Direct Compensation $ 32 $ 49 $ 33 $ 33 $ 147
Accident Benefits $ 562 $ 897 $ 613 $ 613 $ 2,685
Uninsured Automobile
 $ 21 $ 32 $ 22 $ 22 $ 97
#44 Family Protection $ 45 $ 45 $ 45 $ 45 $ 180
Totals $ 718 $ 1,121 $ 781 $ 781 $ 3,401
Click to expand...

For someone that started this petition you should know that you can't directly compare canadian insurance rates versus american insurance rates. American insurers provide as little as $20,000 liability which is why they pay so little in some states, come insurance claim time you will always have to take it to court because $20,000 gets you close to nothing south of the border. I have 2M and worry it's not enough, but I cant pay for more.
 
CHRIS63 said:
For someone that started this petition you should know that you can't directly compare canadian insurance rates versus american insurance rates. American insurers provide as little as $20,000 liability which is why they pay so little in some states, come insurance claim time you will always have to take it to court because $20,000 gets you close to nothing south of the border. I have 2M and worry it's not enough, but I cant pay for more.
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm perfectly aware there are differences from place to place and that you can't do a 100% comparison. The insurance I had quoted in the US was in FL and provides the same or better coverage than what I have in Ontario. Liability of $2M, $500K accident benefits, and the same for uninsured motorist benefits.

The biggest difference is I'm charged once for liability and AB.

While I have 4 bikes, there is just one of me, in FL I pay for liability and AB once -- I can't ride 4 bikes at the same time. In Ontario I am required to pay for this 4 times.


If you look at the differences it's mostly in the $2685 accident benefit premium.
 
While I have 4 bikes, there is just one of me, in FL I pay for liability and AB once -- I can't ride 4 bikes at the same time. In Ontario I am required to pay for this 4 times.
Click to expand...

This is my annoyance as well.
Also sales tax on used bikes.

Australia the liability is paid with your rego each year and is attached to the bike ...not the rider. If you sell the bike the public insurance moves forward with it.
Then the rider can buy private insurance for more - collision etc.
No sales tax on used bikes either.....so rolling bikes over to try different ones is much easier.

They have a solo seat option to which reduces liability cost nearly in half. You remove the rear pegs and have to modify the seat but particularly good for dirt bikes. So my KLR650 costs about $290 a year under that.

Ontario could take some notes.
https://www.canstar.com.au/motorcycle-insurance/what-does-motorcycle-insurance-cost/

Also their graduated licence is REALLLLY stiff....most here would not like it but it would reduce the accidents.
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/licensing/motorcycles
 
MacDoc said:
This is my annoyance as well.
Also sales tax on used bikes.

Australia the liability is paid with your rego each year and is attached to the bike ...not the rider. If you sell the bike the public insurance moves forward with it.
Then the rider can buy private insurance for more - collision etc.
No sales tax on used bikes either.....so rolling bikes over to try different ones is much easier.

They have a solo seat option to which reduces liability cost nearly in half. You remove the rear pegs and have to modify the seat but particularly good for dirt bikes. So my KLR650 costs about $290 a year under that.

Ontario could take some notes.
https://www.canstar.com.au/motorcycle-insurance/what-does-motorcycle-insurance-cost/

Also their graduated licence is REALLLLY stiff....most here would not like it but it would reduce the accidents.
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/licensing/motorcycles
Click to expand...
I'm a fan of AU and UK's graduated licence system. I think it would help the sport to make it the M1 period 1 year (no passengers, no 40x highways) and a limit of 250CC. At the end of one you an exit test to M2. M2 1 year, still no passengers, 600cc max and a power to weigh ratio max of something like 0.2hp/kg, exit test to M.

I'll bet AU is tough because it's state insurance. Matching skills to the vehicle has to save skin and money.
 
I'd like to see Canada adopt the same Learner approved categories that Europe, Australia and Japan have that is a combination of CC and horsepower limits.

I think 44 HP and 650 CC is the top end of the learners. I don't see the value in 250cc limit.

It allows riders to buy detuned versions of something like the 650 Vstrom and still be in the learner program. There are some 500 different models available even up to the MT07 ( FZ07 )

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/licensing/motorcycles/learner-approved

Lots of choice and some can be factory restored to full power.

Might get tricky when EV bikes get popular.
 
D-J said:
Like many riders this time of the year, shopping around and comparing quotes feels like a tedious and time-consuming, but necessary, process to obtaining the best rates.

I've spoken with several brokers over the past few days, some who are seasoned riders and have covered fellow motorcyclists for many years in the GTA. If you begin with "I'm shopping around for motorcycle insurance", almost always the first question is "do you have auto insurance with us?" If the answer is "no" the standard expectation is that you consider moving your auto (and/or home) insurance over. Only then can we talk.

Increasingly there seems to be little to no interest in providing standalone motorcycle insurance to riders here in Ontario. The vast majority of agents, brokers and underwriters are simply not interested period. Everything is driven by money. They want you to bundle everything --though oddly if you're looking for standalone auto insurance there is essentially no pressure to 'bundle'. What about motorcyclists who don't own an automobile and who might use their bike(s) as a primary mode of transportation" How did we end up here? The requirement to bundle is predatory and yet another aspect of the insurance industry politicians must audit.
Click to expand...

I use and have recommended Mitchell and Whale.
 
MacDoc said:
I'd like to see Canada adopt the same Learner approved categories that Europe, Australia and Japan have that is a combination of CC and horsepower limits.

I think 44 HP and 650 CC is the top end of the learners. I don't see the value in 250cc limit.

It allows riders to buy detuned versions of something like the 650 Vstrom and still be in the learner program. There are some 500 different models available even up to the MT07 ( FZ07 )

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/licensing/motorcycles/learner-approved

Lots of choice and some can be factory restored to full power.

Might get tricky when EV bikes get popular.
Click to expand...
I like the 250cc limit for a few reasons (probably better at 300cc today). First is safety - beginners fail and crash for a lot of reasons, some can be mitigated with smaller bikes. 1) Weight - A Vstrom 650 weighs 35% more that a Versys 300 -- that extra 130lbs makes a huge difference in handling ease for a novice. 2) Power - 300cc is enough to get you to 60mps before a BMW 330, Accord V6 Coupe, Lexus GS350F... and a lot more. It will also get to 60KMH over the provinces top speed limit. That's enough to learn with. 3) Price - in places where learners bikes are more popular, prices for them are much lower -- this attracts participants which is good for everyone.

Judging by the number of small bikes for sale, this happens automatically because it's sensible for many new riders. I've witnessed a few novice bike crashes in the last 3 years - almost of them were novices on heavy rides (HD, HD, Victory (RIP), HD, BMW 650, Bonnie, VTX, HD, Ninja 400). I wonder how many would have avoided their accidents had they learned to ride on a lightweight.
 
2/3 of all riders don't have an accident during their riding career. Sure zero speed tip overs but any sort of accident.

I don't particularly think small bikes are inherently safer at all....smaller tire patch and need to be stirred a lot to keep up with traffic. The Honda 500 series are a case in point. Excellent starter bikes easily able to keep up with traffic and have enough torque you don't need to be shifting all the time.

I think it's the 44 hp limit that is more important as well as mandatory ABS.

The Vstrom 650 is on the outer edge as it's heavy and top heavy I doubt would be on the radar of new riders.

The learner bikes and graduated licences have been successful elsewhere ....why reinvent the wheel.
 
Looks like it's slowing a bit. Everyone that's already signed, be sure to at least double up by getting your spouse or significant other to sign up as well, they too are indirectly effected by this. If this ends up going somewhere (which is the best shot we've ver had so far), we will all end up saving literally thousands of dollars - that we deserve - in a relatively short period of time with the kind of insurance reform we need. This is a big deal.
 
I think with Dougie (although I've been critical)
we have the best shot in quite awhile to get auto insurance reform
getting bikes involved in the discussion, in a deliberate way
will be essential, otherwise the issue is never likely to be considered

Mike, if you can get an MPP interested in this
there may be a possibility that Ford would take it up

other than our like of riding and bikes in general
there are clear advantages to the community to support riding

emissions ~ traffic ~ parking

a long shot, but worth the effort, thanks
 
Hey guys, I think it can be helpful if all of us will send emails to our MPPs and ask them to review and at least consider to support this initiative. If each MPP will receive multiple emails about this petition then they might want to at least start a discussion about the issue. I had some experience with MPs and they were very responsive, so maybe MPPs will be too..
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