Sunday Morning Rides are Over - Cyclists win.

[Mad Mike]

Forum Sponsor

Federally it's 10%, provincially it's 14.7%

So simple math since we know the provincial collections...

$807 million * (10%/14.7%) = $549 billion Federal Fuel taxes

($807 + $549)*1.13 = $1.532 billion

I still don't see your quoted $7 billion in taxes.

Edit ... To break it down even including the carbon taxes and all other portions of tax on gasoline....

https://www.ontario.ca/page/motor-fuel-prices

48.5 cents per liter is all taxes. Provincial is 14.7 again...

$807 * (48.5/14.7) = $2.66 billion

Still not getting to your make believe number of $7 billion in fuel related taxes... I wonder why. Oh right it's complete ********.

Let alone the fact you still don't understand municipalities pay for their own roads, and they collect revenues from property taxes. The transfers down from fuel taxes and other revenues amount to less then 10% of the cost of roads for municipalities.

OK, lets use your 48.5c/l for fuel tax, all in.

Here's the raw sales data from the feds on Taxable fuel sales in Ontario for 2019.

Sales of fuel used for road motor vehicles, annual

Sales of fuel used for road motor vehicles (net and gross gasoline sales and net diesel sales).

www150.statcan.gc.ca

	Litres x 1000
Ontario (map)
Type of fuel sales	2019
Net sales of gasoline3	16,842,931
Gross sales of gasoline4	17,171,743
Net sales of diesel oil3	5,569,736
Net sales of liquefied petroleum gas3	57,356

Multiply that by the taxes collected per litre and you're at $8B. Again, it doesn't matter to which level of gov't you pay the taxes to in a general revenue system. At the end of the day you have the road taxes collected and the funds used to pay for roads -- put them on a balance and you'll see tax and fees cover expenditure.

 

[Mad Mike]

And of course, as we covered, the people in these TdF wannabe groups also own vehicles and also tend to be wealthy enough to afford four (even five) figure bikes. They pay plenty of taxes already. These routes are also far enough away odds are they actually drove said vehicle to the meeting point.

The people that are riding bikes to commute in the city because they do not own a car (usually not in the money for them) are the ones not paying "MM's taxes". That and of course kids. How is it ethical/moral to tax either of these groups in an attempt to get them off bicycles???? (Sorry to pay thier "fair share", but we know that is not what this is about.....). In the case of commuters they also pay rent, which contributes to property taxes, which pays for part of the city streets......

I think you missed the point of the argument, I don't recall anyone asking cyclists to pay per mile road taxes. The argument is about entitlements and whether a cyclist or more likely a group of cyclists is entitled to commandeer the entire road under our shared road provisions. I believe most motorists are quite happy sharing the road on a reasonable basis. Bike lanes, 1M passing buffers, etc are all great and I believe they should be free for all to enjoy.

The argument is should cyclists be entitled to defacto exemptions to the HTA rules of the road (stop signs, overtaking rules) and municipal bylaws (i.e riding sidewalks and walkways).

Imagine how the world would treat Amish if they decided it was safer to ride 2 buggys wide, or farmers decided to hold a highway lane during a combine ride to the next field. They don't, they pull right as required. They also stop at reds and signs.

At the end of the day all this silliness could be fixed by clarifying and updating current laws then educating the public about the rules.

 

[Dimitri]

At the end of the day you have the road taxes collected and the funds used to pay for roads -- put them on a balance and you'll see tax and fees cover expenditure.

Again, they don't.

Province collected $804 million 2019-2020 from fuel taxes. As per the budget which is gospel, as that's the final accounting value of provincial fuel taxes.

 

[Evoex]

I think you missed the point of the argument, I don't recall anyone asking cyclists to pay per mile road taxes. The argument is about entitlements and whether a cyclist or more likely a group of cyclists is entitled to commandeer the entire road under our shared road provisions. I believe most motorists are quite happy sharing the road on a reasonable basis. Bike lanes, 1M passing buffers, etc are all great and I believe they should be free for all to enjoy.

The argument is should cyclists be entitled to defacto exemptions to the HTA rules of the road (stop signs, overtaking rules) and municipal bylaws (i.e riding sidewalks and walkways).

Imagine how the world would treat Amish if they decided it was safer to ride 2 buggys wide, or farmers decided to hold a highway lane during a combine ride to the next field. They don't, they pull right as required. They also stop at reds and signs.

At the end of the day all this silliness could be fixed by clarifying and updating current laws then educating the public about the rules.

and appropriate enforcement.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

I think you missed the point of the argument, I don't recall anyone asking cyclists to pay per mile road taxes.

Then why do you keep (falsely) harping about them not paying road taxes?

 

[FullMotoJacket]

Imagine how the world would treat Amish if they decided it was safer to ride 2 buggys wide, or farmers decided to hold a highway lane during a combine ride to the next field. They don't, they pull right as required.

On what planet?

 

[Dimitri]

On what planet?

The law isn't even pulling right technically.

Law says as right as practical. But even slow moving traffic is supposed to stay a meter from the curb or shoulder. To give them room to maneuver.

If it's a multiple lane road (such as two lanes in each direction) the HTA allows slower moving traffic to take up the entire lane. And TPS on bikes ride two abreast all the time because it is legal whether or not entitled drivers like it.

City of Toronto like 15 years ago had a safe cycling pamphlet that listed these rules.

Also for a single lane road. In the city of Toronto lane widths are 3m to 3.3m. If a cyclist is a meter from the curb, and you cannot pass a cyclist within 1 meter. You are looking at half your car in the opposing lane.

 

[bitzz]

Imagine how the world would treat Amish if they decided it was safer to ride 2 buggys wide, or farmers decided to hold a highway lane during a combine ride to the next field.

I live in a farming community with a Amish group.
The Amish will try to keep the horse off the road because the horse doesn't have pavement shoes. If an Amish horse is on the road he is at a walking pace, they can run on the gravel shoulder.

Tractors have got HUGE. A typical 4WD tractor, with dual wheels is a lane and a bit wide.
A sprayer has to clear two 4' rows of corn... so they're about 12' wide.
An empty hay trailer is 10' wide... then they put three 4' bales on it....
Combines are up to 24' wide
They can TRY to pull to the right.

 

[xrljoel]

I live in a farming community with a Amish group.
The Amish will try to keep the horse off the road because the horse doesn't have pavement shoes. If an Amish horse is on the road he is at a walking pace, they can run on the gravel shoulder.

Tractors have got HUGE. A typical 4WD tractor, with dual wheels is a lane and a bit wide.
A sprayer has to clear two 4' rows of corn... so they're about 12' wide.
An empty hay trailer is 10' wide... then they put three 4' bales on it....
Combines are up to 24' wide
They can TRY to pull to the right.

I'm in a farming community too, and You're right. Sometimes the equipment is even larger. I've seen lines of vehicles behind equipment on the road, and sometimes I've been the one pulling the equipment and creating the line. I never had as large stuff as grain guys use, but I always stayed to the right and on the shoulder as much as was safely possible.

The whole point of this thread was we ALL HAVE TO SHARE the roads. Regardless of whose nickel is on the top of the pile.

To me that means, slow down and back off, then pass safely leaving plenty of room. It's also possible that sometimes you'll be waiting for a while behind me and my tractor, or the guy on the bicycle with the skinny tires who can't venture onto the soft shoulder. That's life, it's definitely a pain but so be it.

The worst is when there an organized bicycle ride with police escort and blocker/chaser. People are terrified to pass the group as the trailing cop usually has his lights on and is driving in the lane. When I come upon one of these I change course as I don't know if you can pass the cop, let alone if he actually knows either, and I don't need the roadside conversation depending on his reaction.

 

[LePhillou]

i guess he knows his $hit

also cops will find cyclists less threatening and enforce less.
nothing that bicycle licenses will change.

i have a family member who's a LEO and to him, speeding tickets on the highway (like 400 series) are a waste of time. Like he calls it, it's "punishing good people for trying to make it to work on time" while he thinks policing should be more focused on more serious criminal activity.
So if you have a bunch of LEOs who think similarly, you can imagine that cyclists won't be seen as this big priority in comparison when it comes to "threats to society"

 

[Dimitri]

i guess he knows his $hit

This guy is 100% right. Thanks for posting that, as it supports what I posted earlier.

Should be mandatory as part of getting your license to understand this. As it applies not only to cyclists but all road vehicles.

 

[PrivatePilot]

speeding tickets on the highway (like 400 series) are a waste of time. Like he calls it, it's "punishing good people for trying to make it to work on time"

I think he needs to spend more time on the roads in his personal vehicle, as I'm sure driving a marked cruiser around one might get a false impression of how "good" people seem to be driving out there.

Spend a week or so on the roads with someone who drives ~1000 or more km a day and you'd maybe have a different opinion on how much of negative thing speeding is.

I'm not talking the people doing 120 on an open stretch of 401 in the middle of nowhere. But the Mario Andretti wannabe's weaving dangerously through traffic at 50% or more over that of the prevailing speed of surrounding traffic, well, with all due respect to your LEO family member, I'd strongly disagree.

The old adage "walk a mile in my shoes" would change ones mind quick if you saw it through the eyes of someone who lives on the road.

 

[Dimitri]

The old adage "walk a mile in my shoes" would change ones mind quick if you saw it through the eyes of someone who lives on the road.

I put in 200km a day in Toronto, short trips from site to site. I'm also a cyclist, driver, pedestrian and now with the new bike.

For every cyclist that doesn't stop for a stop sign, there is a driver that ignores the 1m passing rule. For every cyclist that randomly acts like a pedestrian, there is a guy doing 10km/h+ in a school zone. For every cyclist that "hogs" the right lane, there is a driver parked in the bike lane up the street.

I'm excluding those on DUI mobiles, like Uber Eats, they are not "cyclists". They are in a class of their own for idiocy. As for motorcyclists, except for the odd idiot lane splitting at high speeds on the DVP and 401, I don't really notice anything that stands out.

 

[GreyGhost]

The law isn't even pulling right technically.

Law says as right as practical. But even slow moving traffic is supposed to stay a meter from the curb or shoulder. To give them room to maneuver.

If it's a multiple lane road (such as two lanes in each direction) the HTA allows slower moving traffic to take up the entire lane. And TPS on bikes ride two abreast all the time because it is legal whether or not entitled drivers like it.

City of Toronto like 15 years ago had a safe cycling pamphlet that listed these rules.

Also for a single lane road. In the city of Toronto lane widths are 3m to 3.3m. If a cyclist is a meter from the curb, and you cannot pass a cyclist within 1 meter. You are looking at half your car in the opposing lane.

On a bicycle I never ever ride a meter from the curb. That is just a crap place to be and it is hard to put yourself in more danger (legal or not, I want to live). 99.9% of the time I am within 0.1 m of the edge of the pavement, 0.1% of the time I am right in the middle of the lane or in the left wheel track to prevent passing (like when going through a tight S bend).

 

[Dimitri]

On a bicycle I never ever ride a meter from the curb.

Till you get side swiped by a car in a 40km/h zone who tries to squeeze between you and the car in the left lane. Then you'll take the 1m rule or more and just show drivers your middle finger when they honk rather then pass in the left lane.

Also with our sewer drains, and other road debris, it's not a safe place to be.

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm not talking the people doing 120 on an open stretch of 401 in the middle of nowhere. But the Mario Andretti wannabe's weaving dangerously through traffic at 50% or more over that of the prevailing speed of surrounding traffic, well, with all due respect to your LEO family member, I'd strongly disagree.

I think the key there is absolute speed is not the issue, driving like an ahole is. That is something they should focus on but is a much harder ticket to prosecute so they focus on speeding which is trivial to win in court.

 

[LePhillou]

I think he needs to spend more time on the roads in his personal vehicle, as I'm sure driving a marked cruiser around one might get a false impression of how "good" people seem to be driving out there.

Spend a week or so on the roads with someone who drives ~1000 or more km a day and you'd maybe have a different opinion on how much of negative thing speeding is.

I'm not talking the people doing 120 on an open stretch of 401 in the middle of nowhere. But the Mario Andretti wannabe's weaving dangerously through traffic at 50% or more over that of the prevailing speed of surrounding traffic, well, with all due respect to your LEO family member, I'd strongly disagree.

The old adage "walk a mile in my shoes" would change ones mind quick if you saw it through the eyes of someone who lives on the road.

Totally agree that there are people driving like idiots at high speed and making stupid dangerous moves for no good reason. I'm reminded every time i go on the 410 why my insurance used to be $900 more per year when i lived there.
Let's just say that in comparison to the scum he has to deal with, these people are just law abiding citizen with an ego problem.

So on the scale of who's a bigger threat to society, a cyclists not respecting a stop sign (while being a stupid, disrupting and unpredictable move) won't score as high for a law enforcement officer.
A cyclist burning a red light will be going 30-40km/h max, a car doing the same thing will most likely be going double that speed or more with a ton more of weight behind it... So if you see these 2 doing the same thing one next to the other, there might be a bias in terms of who gets the biggest penalty. The cyclist has a bigger chance of hurting himself, where as for the cager, the world is his oyster.
So in the end, unless we task police officers to enforcing specifically this type of risk, it won't be as prioritized as a middle aged man in lycra is not deemed as the scariest predator found on our roads. Might be cocky, sure, but not scary or dangerous

Fun unrelated fact, did you know that in brampton they have one of the highest rates of pole replacement in the province? Whether it be traffic or hydro pole... you name it, it's brampton.

 

[GreyGhost]

Till you get side swiped by a car in a 40km/h zone who tries to squeeze between you and the car in the left lane. Then you'll take the 1m rule or more and just show drivers your middle finger when they honk rather then pass in the left lane.

Also with our sewer drains, and other road debris, it's not a safe place to be.

I've been clipped by cars before (strangely always Camaros) while right at the edge. Crash, pick out the gravel, keep riding. Not much you can do without a plate. The only road obstacle that has bitten me was streetcar tracks. I thought I was was doing a hard enough cut to make the lane change. I wasn't. I don't ride on 22 mm tires on roads where there are many grates. 28mm+ and you stay on top. Even if I go around grates, each individual grate gets a shoulder check, move over, move back. I don't stay out in the danger zone.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Let's just say that in comparison to the scum he has to deal with, these people are just law abiding citizen with an ego problem.

This is the reason I'm a big proponent for traffic cops who solely do...traffic. Put a bunch of them on payroll (at less $$ than a regular cop as they don't carry all the responsibilities and duties) and have them enforce the damn rules of our roads. Honestly, I'm tired of the wild west atmosphere that seems to be getting normalized on our highway system and would have little to no problem with seeing a much higher level of traffic enforcement like is common across many US states.

 

[Mad Mike]

I’m not a avid cyclist, I have a bike and occasionally ride with my wife who is an avcyclist. My only bad is I don’t wear a lid. Otherwise im tight right, ride single file, a pebble on the road doesn’t send me to ‘take the lane’, I have lights, a mirror, I stop at signs/lights and use the same cautious riding style that has kept me accident free for 40 years as a motorcyclist.

My interpretations of the hta when on my bike are conservative and oriented around self preservation.

Rarely do cyclists piss me off, but they do. So do motorcyclists who treat roads like video games or race tracks.

Forum Sponsor