Speed camera update (Sept.11)

[PrivatePilot]

You would lose that bet. Study after study has been done to show that people settle in to a speed that makes sense for the road.

Again, what people think "makes sense" in the mind is often far different than reality.

Here's a random section of Parkside drive from Google street view. As you can see, there's cars parked on the shoulder on the east side for residents. Driveways in sections. Kids live there. People come and go from the park. Kids go back and forth across the street coming and going from the park. Elderly people live in the area. Bikes, whatever else.



Yet we hear constant defence online from people who think this should be a 60-70kph speed zone.

Is 40 a bit low? Sure. Would 50 be more reasonable? Absolutely. But given all the above realities 40 isn't insane either. The length of the street with the problem area is literally barely over 1.5km, it's not like we're talking 10km or something.

At 40kph it would take 2:15 to drive the entire length. At 60kph, 1:30. All this complaining for literally 45 seconds, again, assuming you drive the entire length of the road.

Anyhow, ultimately, If the statistics for this camera were released (I can't seem to find them) I'm pretty confident that you'd discover that a large percentage of those tickets were for speeds well north of 60-70Kph, which if you lived in that area and had kids and you and your spouse and your kids had to get to and from your car safely without fear of something like this happening because a huge percentage of the drivers "feel" that 80k is perfectly safe on city streets.



I think anyone who actually lived in this area would feel quite different than many in this thread seem to feel about the need to do SOMETHING to slow down traffic.

 

[Mad Mike]

I just got a map of bad traffic stuff in my community. Very interesting to see as the majority of speed cameras are nowhere near near heat spots.

 

[PrivatePilot]

I just got a map of bad traffic stuff in my community. Very interesting to see as the majority of speed cameras are nowhere near near heat spots

Looks like a congestion map. Heavy congestion usually means slow traffic, not speeding issues.

Putting a speed camera on the DVP wouldn't yield many tickets (nor any effective purpose) during rush hours, for example.

 

[bitzz]

Again, what people think "makes sense" in the mind is often far different than reality.

Here is ONE of the problems.
MOST people are pretty awful drivers, making pretty awful decisions... and these are the people that are speeding on Parkside, AND complaining about the speed of Parkside, which is a VERY residential street, with one of the largest parks in Canada on one side.
Parkside is an artery road that serves the stockyards, so there is lots of truck traffic... so the assigned speed is dictated by those trucks NOT the cars. A truck takes about twice as far to stop from 60kph as a car.

 

[bitzz]

"Speed cameras are a cash grab"
FFS give it a rest. If a speed enforcement camera is a "cash grab" you're an idiot if you get caught. Speed cameras are a tax on the stupid.

In a hypothetical world: let's say Toronto Police services set up a well marked radar car on Parkside, 24/7/365 at the corner of Indian Grove... is it a 'cash grab" when you the idiot get a ticket for speeding?
You broke the law, and you got caught... what is there to complain about?

You have misplaced rage. Your problem is NOT the speed camera, your problem is the speed limit... and the fact that you're an idiot if you're getting tickets on Parkside, where we ALL know there is a speed enforcement camera.
If you don't agree with the speed limit on Parkside TALK TO CITY HALL, don't ***** on some motorcycle forum.
If they were setting up radar cameras surreptitiously in a "radar trap" you MIGHT have more of an argument... but they're NOT. They're out in the open, and the locations are public knowledge (and most of you don't know what a 'radar trap" is. A "radar trap" is where you, the average driver, CANNOT avoid a ticket. It's a TRAP. Setting up a radar gun at the side of the road is not a "trap", it's speed enforcement... which we need).
Don't want a speeding ticket? Don't speed. Simple.
If you DO speed and get a ticket? STFU and deal with it
You all seem to think all the speed limits are too low... well we all know YOU are the singularly BEST driver in Canada... but do ever look around to see the other idiots out there? Here is a truth you need to know: laws are written for the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR. The laws aren't written for YOU, Canada's best driver, laws are written for morons. Quit driving like morons.
Here is another truth: The car is not KING anymore. There is an active push to get people out of cars and onto public transport... worldwide. And in this particular case, the residents/pedestrians won. The perceived "safety" of the locals trumps the wants of the drivers that want to use Parkside as a artery to the stockyards. Expect more of the same in other locales... and expect Doug Ford to fight every one, and expect Mike to complain about every one too

 

[Mad Mike]

Again, what people think "makes sense" in the mind is often far different than reality.

Here's a random section of Parkside drive from Google street view. As you can see, there's cars parked on the shoulder on the east side for residents.

Not unlike every arterial road in Toronto built before WWII.

Driveways in sections. Kids live there. People come and go from the park. Kids go back and forth across the street coming and going from the park.

It’s not that kind of park, kids don’t go there to play. I lived at Indian Rd and Garden, 50m from Parkside as a kid. Me and my buddies walked Parkside to Sunnyside pool almost every day of the summer from age 5 to 8, it was as busy then as it is now.

Elderly people live in the area. Bikes, whatever else.

View attachment 71840

Yet we hear constant defence online from people who think this should be a 60-70kph speed zone.

Is 40 a bit low? Sure. Would 50 be more reasonable? Absolutely. But given all the above realities 40 isn't insane either.

Again, what problem are you solving? There no safety problem.

The NIMBY and city revenue are the only problems solved.

The length of the street with the problem area is literally barely over 1.5km, it's not like we're talking 10km or something.

At 40kph it would take 2:15 to drive the entire length. At 60kph, 1:30. All this complaining for literally 45 seconds, again, assuming you drive the entire length of the road.

Not sure you understand flow. Cutting from 60 to 40 makes the 1.8 km drive go from 2 minutes to 7 minutes during PBH. It also increases travel time on Roncesville by 2-3 minutes as tragic diverts. That’s a lot of ‘lost’ time.

Anyhow, ultimately, If the statistics for this camera were released (I can't seem to find them) I'm pretty confident that you'd discover that a large percentage of those tickets were for speeds well north of 60-70Kph, which if you lived in that area and had kids and you and your spouse and your kids had to get to and from your car safely without fear of something like this happening because a huge percentage of the drivers "feel" that 80k is perfectly safe on city streets.

View attachment 71841

That story is the primary team NIMBY argument. That driver was driving under a medical driving suspension because he had alcohol related brain damage. He was driving well over 140kmh and blacked out. It’s about as relevant as if a plane crashed on the street.

 

[AllistonGT]

Hard disagree. There are many roads where the speed limit is set to an arbitrary limit that makes ZERO sense. In fact, they've been recently using a piece of software that simply looks at the road maps it's given and spits out a recommended speed limit for the road. Thus you get straight, low-density back roads with just a few driveways, a minimum of 60 feet long, being set to 60kph.

I talked to my counsellor about it, and told him that when people can intuit that the speed limit is ridiculous for the conditions, they won't follow it, especially when it was set at 80kph for the better part of a century and only 3 new buildings have been erected in over a decade (right by the intersection of Hwy 38 in the most egregious case I'm thinking of). So don't act surprised when the public start complaining loudly about it.

His response? That's handled by the roads dept. of the municipality, and won't come to Council unless there's a concerted effort to change it back. My response to that: again, don't be surprised when people ignore the signs. I know I will.

Just returned from New Zealand. "B" roads are all 100 kms/h. All undivided. Most people are doing 85 - 90 as thats what the roads are designed for. Highly twisty sections, I don't think had a speed limit and no signs saying to reduce speed. Again you can only go so fast.
People will only follow laws they deem reasonable. Limits set to low just makes everyone a criminal.
I've driven in the UK, Italy, Australia, New Zealand. Once you drive elsewhere, you realize just how messed up the laws are on our roads.

Another rant. How is it we are so obsessed with stop signs? The places I listed have very few. Just a "give way" or "yield".

 

[Brian P]

And therein lies the problem.

For you, it’s a new 50 zone that extends for a km or whatever (for example), for others is just anything that’s posted for less than what they “feel” is correct. If they don’t like it, they choose to not follow it.

My bet is that if they raised this section of road to 70, people would drive 90 on it.

If we went with feelings and perceived skill levels the 401 would be full of people doing 150-170+ all day long. That doesn’t mean that’s safe. It doesn’t mean 75% of those people don’t have the skills to drive at those speeds regardless of the fact they assure themselves they do. It’s what they *feel* is appropriate.

And this is why we have photo radar expanding.

Just FYI in my experience on unrestricted sections of autobahns in Germany, most normal traffic is doing 120 - 140 km/h (130 km/h is the recommended speed where there are no limits). Sure, there is the occasional high-end vehicle doing more than that, sometimes much more, but for every one of those, there are many, many VW Golf non-turbo diesels, Renault Twingo 1.0, Fiat Panda 1.3 diesel, Ford Mondeo estate (diesel, of course) towing a caravan bigger than the car, Mercedes Sprinter / Ford Transit / Fiat Ducato 4 cylinder diesel, and all manner of other run-of-the-mill cars and vans (and lorries restricted to 100 km/h in the right lane only).

Lane discipline is very strongly enforced. That doesn't happen here.

 

[Mad Mike]

Again, what people think "makes sense" in the mind is often far different than reality.

Here's a random section of Parkside drive from Google street view. As you can see, there's cars parked on the shoulder on the east side for residents.

Not unlike every arterial road in Toronto built before WWII.

Driveways in sections. Kids live there. People come and go from the park. Kids go back and forth across the street coming and going from the park.

It’s not that kind of park, kids don’t go there to play. I lived at Indian Rd and Garden, 50m from Parkside as a kid. Me and my buddies walked Parkside to Sunnyside pool almost every day of the summer from age 5 to 8, it was as busy then as it is now.

Elderly people live in the area. Bikes, whatever else.

View attachment 71840

Yet we hear constant defence online from people who think this should be a 60-70kph speed zone.

Is 40 a bit low? Sure. Would 50 be more reasonable? Absolutely. But given all the above realities 40 isn't insane either.

Again, what problem are you solving? There is no safety problem on Parkside.

The NIMBY and city revenue are the only problems solved.

The length of the street with the problem area is literally barely over 1.5km, it's not like we're talking 10km or something.

At 40kph it would take 2:15 to drive the entire length. At 60kph, 1:30. All this complaining for literally 45 seconds, again, assuming you drive the entire length of the road.

Not sure you understand flow. Cutting from 60 to 40 makes the 1.8 km drive go from 2 minutes to 7 minutes during PBH. It also increases travel time on Roncesville by 2-3 minutes as traffic diverts. That’s a lot of ‘lost’ time.

Anyhow, ultimately, If the statistics for this camera were released (I can't seem to find them) I'm pretty confident that you'd discover that a large percentage of those tickets were for speeds well north of 60-70Kph, which if you lived in that area and had kids and you and your spouse and your kids had to get to and from your car safely without fear of something like this happening because a huge percentage of the drivers "feel" that 80k is perfectly safe on city streets.

View attachment 71841

Ad finally, the infamous story that’s used to justify all this by the NIMBYs.

A few years back the fellow on the curb had his licence pulled for medical reasons - brain damage from chronic alcohol abuse. He still drove, blacked out and hit 140kmh before slamming into and older couple who were tragically killed.

No amount of speed control would have prevented this accident - it would have happened on any street the fellow was driving on.

 

[LePhillou]

The opposite, the premise of a police force is to punish individuals. For example, if you find 1 in group of 10 rolls a stop sign, you only ticket the one (individual punishment). You can't ban all 10 from that road based on the deeds of one (collective punishment).

If a pedestrian walks a red and gets hit by a car, do you collectively punish all motorists by banning turns in that intersection?

I'm truly enjoying our conversation here as it's bringing some good points (i find) on either sides.

The laws that are in place punish the many because of the few that would abuse the freedom of a lawless, anarchic or even libertarian system.
The stop signs hinders freedom of travel, some societies as a whole don't respect them...over here we could have roundabouts but that is deemed to be too hard for our drivers. We have red lights for the same reason, and while red light cameras catch any single offender, i don't see people complaining about them although it's a similar concept to speed cameras. But we also wouldn't post a traffic officer at every single light to monitor, as it's just absurd so we automate.
We have R.I.D.E that punishes everyone by slowing them the heck down because a few decided they could get smashed and drive, we all get delayed and some of us have to blow... but we accept the punishment for great safety. Could that drunk person drive safely, possibly but it's still deemed unsafe.
Same goes for cellphones, the fines have increased by a $hit ton because a few were abusing its use and causing accidents so now everybody suffers from stricter oversight and penalties.

In this case, many will be punished because too many people couldn't drive the speed limit that was posted, so now they're getting speed bumps because for ordinary people, cars driving by at 60-70km/h to go to the park doesn't feel safe.

The officers are in place to enforce the laws that were put in place to limit our freedoms. As my family member that works in law enforcement says (about OPP on the highways), "they're out there ticketing good people during rush hour that are trying to get to work on time". That's coming through his lens of arresting murderers and "real criminals".

I mean we can still not agree with a law in place but we can also temporarily comply if we want to even if it's for the 15 seconds it takes to cross a speed camera lol

 

[STARSHIP]

Speed cameras work at least for me.. Got a few tickets and now drive/ride much slower on city streets especially in community / schools etc.

Hopefully they keep them off the highways

 

[PrivatePilot]

Just FYI in my experience on unrestricted sections of autobahns in Germany, most normal traffic is doing 120 - 140 km/h (130 km/h is the recommended speed where there are no limits). Sure, there is the occasional high-end vehicle doing more than that, sometimes much more, but for every one of those, there are many, many VW Golf non-turbo diesels, Renault Twingo 1.0, Fiat Panda 1.3 diesel, Ford Mondeo estate (diesel, of course) towing a caravan bigger than the car, Mercedes Sprinter / Ford Transit / Fiat Ducato 4 cylinder diesel, and all manner of other run-of-the-mill cars and vans (and lorries restricted to 100 km/h in the right lane only).

Lane discipline is very strongly enforced. That doesn't happen here.

Comparing anything in Europe to here is apples and oranges though.

In Germany the process of getting your licence can take 3-4 months, costs thousands, and includes an actual honest to goodness level of education and strict testing in your actual home area. Failure rates are high on both testing and the road tests. Then speed cameras are everywhere.

Here in Ontario, if you have a pulse and crayon and can manage to drive a few km without killing yourself or your examiner, probably somewhere way out in cottage country with no traffic versus some dense urban area where you actually live and will be driving afterwards, you pass.

Speed cameras work at least for me.. Got a few tickets and now drive/ride much slower on city streets especially in community / schools etc.

Hopefully they keep them off the highways

As is the case with most people. A few tickets tends to make people take notice of their driving habits. Get a doosey $300-$500+ one and that effect is multipled even more.

It's almost as if they work or something.

 

[Baggsy]

Again, what people think "makes sense" in the mind is often far different than reality.

Here's a random section of Parkside drive from Google street view. As you can see, there's cars parked on the shoulder on the east side for residents. Driveways in sections. Kids live there. People come and go from the park. Kids go back and forth across the street coming and going from the park. Elderly people live in the area. Bikes, whatever else.

View attachment 71840

Yet we hear constant defence online from people who think this should be a 60-70kph speed zone.

Is 40 a bit low? Sure. Would 50 be more reasonable? Absolutely. But given all the above realities 40 isn't insane either. The length of the street with the problem area is literally barely over 1.5km, it's not like we're talking 10km or something.

At 40kph it would take 2:15 to drive the entire length. At 60kph, 1:30. All this complaining for literally 45 seconds, again, assuming you drive the entire length of the road.

Anyhow, ultimately, If the statistics for this camera were released (I can't seem to find them) I'm pretty confident that you'd discover that a large percentage of those tickets were for speeds well north of 60-70Kph, which if you lived in that area and had kids and you and your spouse and your kids had to get to and from your car safely without fear of something like this happening because a huge percentage of the drivers "feel" that 80k is perfectly safe on city streets.

View attachment 71841

I think anyone who actually lived in this area would feel quite different than many in this thread seem to feel about the need to do SOMETHING to slow down traffic.

It was an 80 at one point. The problem area is where the south High Park path crosses without a crosswalk, bridge or signal. The place where pedestrians cross there is obscured by the bridge.
What needs to happen is to tack on a ramp up to the Queenway bridge for pedestrians, and remove some trees, then increase the limit to 50 or 60 except near the bridge. Letting vehicles park inside of High Park instead of on Parkside alleviate much of the parking situation. Won't happen.

South Kingsway was also 60 when I moved into the area. It's also 40 now.
Easy to lower limits and put bumps, chicanes, photo radar etc. in, but no incentive by politicians to remove them.
Interestingly enough, the roads in the area are crap and poorly maintained, which negatively affects safety. Take of that what you will.

Street View · Google Maps

Edit: If you're walking/riding through High Park to the hospital or back, that crossing is where you end up. If you're not in a hurry you can walk north or south, not too far to a light, but they obviously can't put a third light or crosswalk there. The Queensway itself for some stupid reason, doesn't have a sidewalk over that long bridge. It does have a bike lane.

 

[Mad Mike]

Looks like a congestion map. Heavy congestion usually means slow traffic, not speeding issues.

Putting a speed camera on the DVP wouldn't yield many tickets (nor any effective purpose) during rush hours, for example.

It’s a heat map. Red areas have injury or fatality, accidents, yellow areas collisions. I know at least 2 cams are on collector roads that are white on the map. Robinson near Windridge comes to mind.

It’s a good earning spot, no accidents and no congestion.