Something needs to be done

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GreyGhost said:
Thumbs up. That person would clearly remember and i would be shocked if they didn't pay more attention in the future. After paying their $90 ticket in Ontario I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled in front of someone leaving the courthouse parking lot.
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The problem with that system is that the killer driver only gets the message after he has altered someone's life. The number of drivers that kill or main is very small and the ones that do it more than once is microscopic.

The system needs to be changed to prevent the first crash.

I wonder about a form of decimation. One out of every ten drivers has to undergo special retraining after conviction and at their own cost.

Decimation by the Romans worked because it hit close to home, so to speak.

Police have to issue a certain percentage of non-speeding tickets.
 
nobbie48 said:
The system needs to be changed to prevent the first crash.
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If the penalty for not paying attention is extremely severe, and it's made public knowledge, maybe it has a fighting chance of preventing that first crash by raising awareness. (Same as drunk driving, same as seat belts)

To me, it makes absolutely no logical sense that the penalty for doing a 3 inch wheelie in sight of a cop, but no harm done, is more severe than that of turning left in front of an oncoming vehicle and killing that vehicle's operator. The penalties for right-of-way violations that result in a collision should be AT LEAST as much as the maximum penalties for "stunt driving".

On your point of requiring special retraining after a conviction - maybe drivers ought to take a re-test showing that they at least KNOW what the right-of-way rules are, if they get a ticket (not necessarily involving an accident) for a right-of-way violation.
 
Wish i had of bought my evil ex wife a bike with what i could have been charged with if i hit her with my car

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And yes its a joke pointing at the lack of proper charges

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Personally I would like to see much longer suspensions. Mandatory rexamination to get the license back.

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Brian P said:
On your point of requiring special retraining after a conviction - maybe drivers ought to take a re-test showing that they at least KNOW what the right-of-way rules are, if they get a ticket (not necessarily involving an accident) for a right-of-way violation.
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Hell, just have everybody retake the g1 test (or similar written test) at every license renewal. If you drive you should be able to pass it without thinking. If you can't pass it, off to remedial training for you.
 
It always amazes me when people get on their high horses, and then try and take speed and radar enforcement out of the equation.

While speed doesn't kill, delta v does, and speed contributes to delta v.

So let's come up with some realistic expectations, and solutions.

Getting people to actually pay attention and slow the **** down wouldn't hurt.
 
nobbie48 said:
Reasonable attention is compromised by car safety. Bigger roof pillars for roll over protection of the driver create bigger blind spots.
Fuel efficiency comes from smaller frontal areas, smaller mirrors, and tinted glass to minimize air conditioning loads. Aerodynamic designs often cut visibility.

Turn up the theatre sound. Why listen to what's going on around you as you think about whether you should switch from Starbucks To Second Cup?

Don't worry about a crash You have a dozen airbags to protect you. Tough luck to the others.



Cars today are safer for the occupants but not the ones outside the crash cage.

I agree that dedicated drivers can spot bikes but driving has to be taken as a discipline not a God given right. The attitude has to change and the voter score is about 98 to 2 in favour of the status quo.
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For sure driving attitude and discipline is at the root of this. I drive a convertible with horrible visibility lines, but I can still reasonably drive with attention and observe motorcycles as well as other traffic.

Interesting thoughts and some good points on design changes and decreased visibility. I agree it has happened, but would advocate it isn't affecting the visibility of motorcyclists, nor reasonable attention. I don't believe reasonable attention is compromised by any existing car safety changes or other design changes. Yes, some newer car designs and features have reduced some visibility from a static driver position. However, driving is not a passive endeavor, and that simply means drivers need to make more of an effort to manage their visibility outwards from a car. People should clearly (haha) not be driving around without managing a vehicle's blind spots (which every vehicle has); it's quite dangerous to be driving a vehicle without accounting for blind spots. Basic driving education includes teaching and instruction on how to check and manage blind spots; it isn't rocket science. Vehicles with larger blind spots simply need a little more effort. And truthfully, managing blind spots is required in order to pay reasonable attention to driving.

From what I've read, understood and experienced, none of those car safety improvements listed significantly affect the visibility towards motorcycles as part of traffic. Typically, the safety issues with aerodynamics changes, A-pillars and smaller frontal areas are around adversely affecting pedestrians and bicyclists who are on the outside edge of viewing fields and driving lanes (left hand turns especially). For mirrors sizes and tinted glass, they aren't significantly changing as there are prescribed viewing safety standards that have to be met, so again visibility is not affected with reasonable attention. e.g., https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2004-title49-vol5/xml/CFR-2004-title49-vol5-sec571-111.xml
 
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Brian P said:
If the penalty for not paying attention is extremely severe, and it's made public knowledge, maybe it has a fighting chance of preventing that first crash by raising awareness. (Same as drunk driving, same as seat belts)

To me, it makes absolutely no logical sense that the penalty for doing a 3 inch wheelie in sight of a cop, but no harm done, is more severe than that of turning left in front of an oncoming vehicle and killing that vehicle's operator. The penalties for right-of-way violations that result in a collision should be AT LEAST as much as the maximum penalties for "stunt driving".

On your point of requiring special retraining after a conviction - maybe drivers ought to take a re-test showing that they at least KNOW what the right-of-way rules are, if they get a ticket (not necessarily involving an accident) for a right-of-way violation.
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I mention decimation because it wouldn't have to be advertised. There'd be dozens of people taking the bus and you'd see it at work or on the block. The average high rise would have dozens of decapped. Very few people on any block have just maimed someone so there isn't much gossip. Decimation would change that. By decimation I don't refer to capital punishment but rather very severe fines / jail. Lose your house / job stuff.

When people cause a crash they are more worried about their insurance rates than their licence or the guy on the stretcher.

The government that brought in a heavy hammer wouldn't get re-elected so don't hold your breath.

Another route would be to stop giving out fines. No more policing for profit. The system would have to think outside the box to come up with deterrents. The present ones aren't working. Politicians giving up money? Like that would ever happen.

How about dropping from a G to a G-2 for a month for a first conviction, a G-1 if you get another withing 2 years? Of course a certain number of tickets are needed to balance the budget so they aren't going to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs even if the goose is a killer.
 
How about creating an online petition to the government asking for better safety awareness and laws? I'll sign it!
 
AskMe said:
How about creating an online petition to the government asking for better safety awareness and laws? I'll sign it!
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I will be studied to death and then buried. We have a provincial election on the distant horizon and radical moves like using common sense in driver testing aren't popular platforms for any party. Solid commitments are easily attacked by special interest groups.

Elections aren't usually won by massive numbers of overall votes so wishy washy promises are made instead.

Wynne has pathetic support but that doesn't mean the Lie-berals won't win again. Just have a leadership change and bring in a new white Knight to put a new spin on things. The Pretty Confused and No Definite Plans parties aren't dazzling the province with brilliance. Wynne agin? Could happen.
 
CruisnGrrl said:
Careful how you rock the boat, our nanny state may decide that motorcycling is too dangerous and ban them like lawn darts...
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Removing vulnerable road users - creating divided bicycle lanes and prohibiting motorcycles is the obvious solution. Then everyone can be protected by their vehicular safety features.

#sarcasm
 
Some BS stats:

Ontario has about 8.5 million drivers and typically about 25 motorcyclists die each year on the roads. Take out the single bike crashes and the average driver has about a one in a half million chance of offing a biker.

About six times the number of people are murdered. Does murder resulting from washing bike parts in the dishwasher count as a M/C stat?

In West Virginia the odds are 1 in 39 of hitting a deer.

Bottom line: We aren't all that important.
 
I think we make too many excuses for bad driving behavior. You are not supposed to cross the solid line. You are not supposed to do U-turns unless the way is clear. There may be circumstances leading up to a crash, but fault and punishment must go to the vehicle causing the crash. The problem is not enough people are being put in prison for their actions on the highway.
 
If there are harsher penalties for left turn hits, random lane change hits and crossing the line, I think the situation might improve. The drivers will be at least more vigilant. I also would demand cp24 or any other tv media to show a bike awareness video everyday. Open to discuss more ideas over coffee if needed.
 
If you want to make a difference and drive your bike in a decent fashion, get out and teach.

Many people could definitely use the lessons taught, and classes tend to get choked by the limited number of teachers available.

At least get it to the point where we're limited by bikes, then lots, etc. etc. etc. We should at least do our part in the equation.
 
Motorcyclists aren't the only ones being put at risk by bad drivers. There seems to be a pretty strong trend among the broader public to support harsher penalties for inattentive driving incidents, probably due to increasing use of cell phones while driving.

The Star seems to be most active on the issue https://www.thestar.com/news/pedest...accidents-often-punished-with-small-fine.html The issue is already on the radar of the transportation minister Del Duca, but from what I gather from that article there doesn't seem to be anything specific being worked on.

Some relatives of victims started a campaign called Friends and Families for Safer Streets ffsafestreets.ca whose page is hosted by Cycle Toronto. They seem largely motivated by the number of pedestrian and cyclist injuries and deaths in TO, but they welcome anyone impacted by "road violence" to participate, and their goal is more inclusively stated as "to end traffic violence in Toronto". Maybe it makes sense to focus on just TO and then let the notion of harsher penalties for distraction causing deaths to spread into other jurisdictions?

The latest story:
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...calls-for-stricter-penalties-for-drivers.html"Sgt. Brett Moore of Toronto Police Traffic Services said the unit would support a vulnerable road user law."
 
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Some excellent ideas here from participants in this discussion.... 2 years ago , I saw this situation (distracted driving) getting worse and worse , with increased fines and enforcement (weekend blitzes etc) having little to no effect ..... I made the very difficult decision to sell my beloved Ducatis and give up riding on the street for this exact reason.... I returned to my roots (off road) to get my fix , and it's been great .... I'm not telling anyone here that that is the answer for them , but I want to enjoy some retirement years and see my kids grow up .... not having it snuffed out by some idiot on his cell phone.... just take a look around while sitting at ANY intersection to see how many are screwing around with their hand held devices .... it's beyond ridiculous.... I wish for all riders to be safe and drive with their full concentration and awareness .... sometimes that isn't even enough though .....
Les



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