Solution to traffic

[PrivatePilot]

Forum Sponsor

I expected to hear TLDR from some.

But fwiw I type north of 120wpm, so that didn't take me long to type at all. The downside of being able to type fast is that often I type too much as a result.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Regardless, the same theories apply. With these sorts of restrictions there's going to be a crap-ton of drivers in Toronto sitting on their hands wasting countless hours. Those drivers will be ****** and refuse to go to Toronto again unless they get paid for their down time waiting out the rush hour limitations.

Add to that all the companies that are not normally open overnight (think about it, the greater majority of businesses close) that will have to hire significant overnight staff to service those trucks.

..and the rest, will be history - as someone else mentioned, those two things alone will add dramatically to the costs of everything those trucks deliver, which most people are woefully unaware consists of almost every single thing you lay your hands on every day. Those costs will be immediately and directly passed onto YOU, the consumer.

So, if you're OK paying more for everything then this plan is workable. I suspect most people would not be.

To suggest that drivers and companies just "time" everything so that they arrive or depart Toronto during the overnight hours isn't realistic in the world of transportation. Loads are unpredictable, a driver often doesn't know where he's headed until after his trailer is empty and he is sent for his next pickup, and there's a lot of unpredictability in the realities of driving for a living. Breakdowns, highway closures, traffic, weather..but to mention a few.

 

[crankcall]

The three immediates on a truck ban would be contract carriers would put TO on a go there as a last resort, so getting frt loads and LTL into the city would be harder (more expensive) , Non contract carriers (company truck) would cost more to get to a destination and manufacturing which already has enough headaches doing business in TO would look outside the city. (again)

its completely do able, but it would cost way more than people may be considering.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Yep.

Our company moves LTL freight between terminals at night, but does the pickup and deliveries (that allows the realities behind LTL service, particularly next-day service) happen throughout the day, and the cycle repeats all over again.

Not servicing customers during hours that they're normally open is simply not possible, and yes, Crank is 100% right - industry would flee, and other businesses would be burdened with additional costs that you want to believe you, the consumer, will be stuck with in the end.

This is a great kneejerk reaction to the "angry guy stuck behind a truck in morning traffic" situation but it fails to take into consideration almost everything aside from the fleeting moment of anger, much less the fact that (as someone else also mentioned) trucks aren't the root of the issue anyways.

 

[griff2]

The City may one day choose to impose restricted hours on truck traffic on the expressways and major arterials under its control.

Provincial highways such as the 401, 427, and 403 are another matter altogether. I seriously doubt that the province would ever agree to cripple cross-province goods transport by restricting truck traffic to certain hours.

 

[mimico_polak]

Personally I don't think that banning trucks is the answer to our traffic woes in this city...or any other for that manner.

The answer, and I'm a little biased as I'm in this industry, is the improvement of transit for people to get to work as well as employers to allow for flex-time to the employees that are not core to be in the office during main office hours (such as myself at my old job...could do it from home).

I would love to take transit to work on a daily basis...however I'm limited by the following currently:

1. shift starts at 6am making it physically impossible for me to get to the 'office' @ Eglinton West station by the start of my shift due to subway schedule. Once I switch shifts I will take transit just for the sake of not driving on Eglinton and the cluster **** on it at the moment.
2. takes me over an hour to get to work vs 30min by car (no traffic jams)

If you can't make transit attractive compared to the car in terms of time and convenience (COST is definitely cheaper than driving in my instance) then it's a non-starter.

Expand the transit system, allow for longer hours on the subways, and have proper routes through major areas and you will have a proper step forward towards reducing traffic congestion.

 

[Red_Liner740]

Sure, the economy of Ontario is in Shambles, lets just make it even more difficult to do business. Glad to see them volunteering other people to 2nd and 3rd shifts so they can get to their work quicker. Selfish no? How about you take a pay cut and get a job locally. Oh, not willing to sacrifice that but are willing to throw other people lives in shambles? How Canadian of you. ****ing NIMBYs.

 

[Zoodles95]

Have you been typing this since my post this afternoon?

Sorry man I skimmed through your answer as it is too long.

We are talking about scenarios with only Toronto having the ban, so let's keep to that.

Again# if instituted companies would have to figure the best way to do business. You might not see those measures right now as you are thinking on your current frame of work.

Anyways, back to the Raptors.. you now have the whole night to write another book.

He made a lot of great points in his post and clearly and cogently showed why this is such a flawed proposal. We are already making it difficult to do business in this province with our crazy levels of taxation and super expensive hydro costs. If companies cannot reliably get their goods on time then this is just another way to make this area less palatable to businesses.

California is not a nice place to take a load to. After the tenth time I said enough was enough and refused to take any more loads there. NYC is one area where drivers are paid a premium to go to. Guess who pays for that? Ultimately the consumer in NYC. If Toronto instituted something like this then the trucking companies would have to pay a premium to their drivers as an incentive to get them to take a load there. Guess who pays for that? The receiver does and the costs get handed down to you and I.

 

[crankcall]

Look folks, the OP Neuman posted a link to a newspaper story. Journalism today is largely public relations and sensationalism posting headlines to get people to click the link. Then buy a razor or something silly.

People read what the muppet show in TO council dreams up, then they go outside and yell at the clouds.

 

[PrivatePilot]

then they go outside and yell at the clouds.

Immediately came to mind.

 

[nobbie48]

Yep.

Our company moves LTL freight between terminals at night, but does the pickup and deliveries (that allows the realities behind LTL service, particularly next-day service) happen throughout the day, and the cycle repeats all over again.

Not servicing customers during hours that they're normally open is simply not possible, and yes, Crank is 100% right - industry would flee, and other businesses would be burdened with additional costs that you want to believe you, the consumer, will be stuck with in the end.

This is a great kneejerk reaction to the "angry guy stuck behind a truck in morning traffic" situation but it fails to take into consideration almost everything aside from the fleeting moment of anger, much less the fact that (as someone else also mentioned) trucks aren't the root of the issue anyways.

Consider:

Transfer loads to smaller trucks. Right. Instead of one big truck you will have 10 small ones.

Big trucks pollute. True but do the calculations based on load carried per mile and they are pretty good.

Toronto vs. GTA: This is a GTA problem unless your name is Cinderella and the truck you are driving turns into a smart car when it hits some Les Nessman type imaginary border.

Cost: I'll let Privatepilot handle this one because he types faster but basically the profit juice got squeezed out of the trucking industry with deregulation. If consumers have to pay more for their goods because of increased shipping costs the consumers will have to cut back on other essentials like spa days, Starbuck coffees, designer fingernail paint etc. Fragile personalities can't take the humiliation of living within their means.

From a personal cost basis it's interesting how people suggest truckers work odd hours and split shifts so the hoi polloi is not inconvenienced.

I can't think of an industry worse than trucking for a business profit model. The base is a driver travelling between Milton and Bowmanville at 10 MILES per hour average and therefore making less than $4.50 per hour. If he has to wait two hours to be unloaded that isn't paid time. There are better options in the industry but the $0.45 per mile is always in the background in case someone asks for more. (Please sir. Could I have some more?)

The good news: When the airbrains finally drive Canada, Ontario and Toronto into bankruptcy the roads will be clear. No jobs to drive to, no goods to be delivered.

 

[Blackfin]

Would be nice if we hadn't allowed our rail system to atrophy so badly. Would that we had a system where freight that currently moves 53-ft at a time on crowded highways could instead enter cities via dedicated rail lines to distribution centres where it could be distributed via smaller, quicker more nimble trucks.

The model used for shipping is a good analogy. A giant vehicle (ship) comes into a distribution centre (port) bearing hundreds of thousands of tons of stuff, unloads and that freight is then distributed via vehicles that are quicker, smaller and more nimble than the ship (trains, trucks etc).

The problem is that industry adopted "just in time" inventory systems and everyone expects the package they ordered from ebay or amazon to be on their doorstep the next day.

We're all -- consumers and corporations -- to blame for the congestion caused by large trucks on our highways because we've created the market conditions that put them there.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Moving freight to trains only makes sense when it's not time sensitive, but because many companies don't want to warehouse product anymore (instead having just enough arrive just in time) trains don't work for the overwhelming majority of freight.

For example, I have on my trailer for delivery today an engine for a car dealer in Peterborough. I'm sure some guy with a broken down car is anxiously awaiting his replacement engine so the mechanics can get started installing it.

My company picked it up yesterday and it'll be delivered by noon.

Put it it on a train? Still has to get to the rail depot by truck, still 3-5 days to get to Toronto (rail yards are only in major cities), and then it has to be unloaded, put on a truck, backtracked all the way east back out of the city and up to Peterborough. In the end it could very well take over a week.

If if you're that guy waiting for his engine, does this sound reasonable?

Rail serves a good purpose when it comes to non time sensitive long haul. Time sensitive long haul or regional or inter-provincial medium haul is dominated by truck as its vastly more effective. And your local mom and pop shop, grocery store, beer store, hardware store (etc etc ad infinitum) is never going to get deliveries via train.

As for pollution, you'd all be amazed at how clean the new trucks run. Read up on the science of DPF and SCR. Comparing to trains which are still allowed to burn high sulphur furnace oil with NO aftertreatment of the exhaust shows a lack of understanding again - locomotives are very VERY dirty in comparison now.

 

[Blackfin]

Moving freight to trains only makes sense when it's not time sensitive, but because many companies don't want to warehouse product anymore (instead having just enough arrive just in time) trains don't work for the overwhelming majority of freight.

For example, I have on my trailer for delivery today an engine for a car dealer in Peterborough. I'm sure some guy with a broken down car is anxiously awaiting his replacement engine so the mechanics can get started installing it.

My company picked it up yesterday and it'll be delivered by noon.

Put it it on a train? Still has to get to the rail depot by truck, still 3-5 days to get to Toronto (rail yards are only in major cities), and then it has to be unloaded, put on a truck, backtracked all the way east back out of the city and up to Peterborough. In the end it could very well take over a week.

If if you're that guy waiting for his engine, does this sound reasonable?

It was seen as reasonable 40 years ago when that was the norm, before everyone got on the instant gratification bandwagon. That's why I said business and consumers and their demand for instant-everything have created the market conditions that demand trucks be everywhere.

Rail serves a good purpose when it comes to non time sensitive long haul. Time sensitive long haul or regional or inter-provincial medium haul is dominated by truck as its vastly more effective. And your local mom and pop shop, grocery store, beer store, hardware store (etc etc ad infinitum) is never going to get deliveries via train.

No, and that's why I mentioned the use of distribution centres or hubs where trains would be unloaded, stuff sorted and sent out in smaller, more nimble vehicles. It used to be that factories located on rail corridors and had rail sidings that helped them service their shipping and receiving needs...

As for pollution, you'd all be amazed at how clean the new trucks run. Read up on the science of DPF and SCR. Comparing to trains which are still allowed to burn high sulphur furnace oil with NO aftertreatment of the exhaust shows a lack of understanding again - locomotives are very VERY dirty in comparison now.

I don't really care that much about North American pollution though I'm guessing that moving 15,000 tons of freight and materials using one or two diesel-electric locomotives probably still pollutes less overall than needing 375 semis on the roads doing the same thing.

What irks me is the volume of semis on highways at peak rush hours. Semis are slow to accelerate to highway speeds & take far longer to stop and when they merge (or encounter merging traffic) their bulk and inability or unwillingness to yield leads to backups and slow-downs. When they're involved in crashes people often die and three lanes of a highway end up blocked for hours and hours.

 

[Baggsy]

Would be nice if we hadn't allowed our rail system to atrophy so badly. Would that we had a system where freight that currently moves 53-ft at a time on crowded highways could instead enter cities via dedicated rail lines to distribution centres where it could be distributed via smaller, quicker more nimble trucks.

The model used for shipping is a good analogy. A giant vehicle (ship) comes into a distribution centre (port) bearing hundreds of thousands of tons of stuff, unloads and that freight is then distributed via vehicles that are quicker, smaller and more nimble than the ship (trains, trucks etc).

The problem is that industry adopted "just in time" inventory systems and everyone expects the package they ordered from ebay or amazon to be on their doorstep the next day.

We're all -- consumers and corporations -- to blame for the congestion caused by large trucks on our highways because we've created the market conditions that put them there.

Hey, I have an idea. Let's dismantle the Gardiner, and force everyone to watch trains shunt,
while they're on their way to and from work. Nah, nobody would be foolish enough to accept that.
Oh wait . . .

 

[daught]

Moving freight to trains only makes sense when it's not time sensitive, but because many companies don't want to warehouse product anymore (instead having just enough arrive just in time) trains don't work for the overwhelming majority of freight.

For example, I have on my trailer for delivery today an engine for a car dealer in Peterborough. I'm sure some guy with a broken down car is anxiously awaiting his replacement engine so the mechanics can get started installing it.

My company picked it up yesterday and it'll be delivered by noon.

Put it it on a train? Still has to get to the rail depot by truck, still 3-5 days to get to Toronto (rail yards are only in major cities), and then it has to be unloaded, put on a truck, backtracked all the way east back out of the city and up to Peterborough. In the end it could very well take over a week.

If if you're that guy waiting for his engine, does this sound reasonable?

Rail serves a good purpose when it comes to non time sensitive long haul. Time sensitive long haul or regional or inter-provincial medium haul is dominated by truck as its vastly more effective. And your local mom and pop shop, grocery store, beer store, hardware store (etc etc ad infinitum) is never going to get deliveries via train.

As for pollution, you'd all be amazed at how clean the new trucks run. Read up on the science of DPF and SCR. Comparing to trains which are still allowed to burn high sulphur furnace oil with NO aftertreatment of the exhaust shows a lack of understanding again - locomotives are very VERY dirty in comparison now.

Would it not be better to wait a few extra days for that engine if commuting everyday would be faster? The engine might have lasted longer too if it did not have to deal with so much stop and go.

As for increased costs, isn't it very expensive to have a truck in stop and go traffic? Fuel, and drivers siting for two hours in traffic. At night a driver could make way more deliveries, saving money. None of us know the real costs of this idea, but it can save money too.


Sent from my clear iPhone 31SS

 

[nobbie48]

Moving freight to trains only makes sense when it's not time sensitive, but because many companies don't want to warehouse product anymore (instead having just enough arrive just in time) trains don't work for the overwhelming majority of freight.

For example, I have on my trailer for delivery today an engine for a car dealer in Peterborough. I'm sure some guy with a broken down car is anxiously awaiting his replacement engine so the mechanics can get started installing it.

My company picked it up yesterday and it'll be delivered by noon.

Typically efficiency doesn't work well with critical situations. Pack mules aren't efficient but if the road gets closed they can walk through the ditch. There is a domino effect to JIT. It looks good until one of the links goes down.

 

[mxs]

In other words, in the reality of the transportation industry, this doesn't work. Even tossing out the theoretical limitations in Halifax, Quebec City and Montreal as well all it takes is one unexpected delay (highway closure, blown tire, breakdown, whatever) to not only shut a plant down that's waiting for their product because the truck can't get into town when it arrives (vs when it was theoretically *supposed* to arrive) but the driver who's getting paid by the mile is loosing his mind spending countless extra hours stuck in his truck earning butkiss.

The real problem is that in North America a dense rails system is an afterthought and as well as its intermodal system. In other parts of the world a lot of parts of the cargo traffic is done by a rail all the way to a railway siding. Railways sidings are more a norm elsewhere, here, only very few warehouses or DC's have that.

So this enables the trucking industry to claim that without them we are pretty much done here. And if they can say that, you bet their lobbyist are busy making sure that ban in driving hours would be high on their list.

They should try a ban from Sat and Sun (currently in EU, hours vary by countries) and all holidays, with exception to refrigerated cargo etc., and you will see the feedback. I bet it would never fly here ever ....

 

[ZX600]

Relax man.

I said I do not do the job so I am not sure of the consequences, this is a forum to discuss topics, issues and throw out ideas. I happen to agree with it because I have seen it work but I am sure it took a lot of time and change to get there, you and mostly people that are part of the business disagree and you have your valid reasons for, some of them you already mentioned, scheduled worked hours will have to change etc.

I am not volunteering anyone, like others have volunteered me to drive 30km/hr downtown Toronto or 100km/hr on the 401. This is just a conversation.

Sure, the economy of Ontario is in Shambles, lets just make it even more difficult to do business. Glad to see them volunteering other people to 2nd and 3rd shifts so they can get to their work quicker. Selfish no? How about you take a pay cut and get a job locally. Oh, not willing to sacrifice that but are willing to throw other people lives in shambles? How Canadian of you. ****ing NIMBYs.

 

[crankcall]

I have a rail siding at my distribution center, I'll do rail car from Alberta and Oregon , the mills I deal with rail so there is no trucking at all, sometimes shorter runs intermodal is ok. But largely trucking is less expensive than rail, so we truck. And a box car holds about three trucks of product so if you don't want three trucks in one shot...

Many small rail lines in Canada have been decommissioned , they make great rail trails for Mtn bikes, our shortsightedness will bite us in the arse. Rail in Ontario is expensive compared to trucking. Its about 2 1/2, 3 wks for a boxcar from Oregon, it can sit in Chicago for a week. Truck is 5 days.

As an aside, try and get truck of anything out of the Carolinas during mellon season, anything with wheels is hauling mellons.

Forum Sponsor