Petition e-4701 Non Confidence in Government | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Petition e-4701 Non Confidence in Government

jc100 said:
We didn’t have those eastern provinces when Harper was in power?
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What's your problem? Of course we did. Why does everyone insist on black and white? Seats/transfer payments are clearly set up to push the odds in the liberals favour. That doesn't mean they always win but it does mean they get far more seats than they should.

It has been a structural problem for decades. Nobody is fixing it. JT promised to until he realized that would make it hard for him to win. Cons can't promise to fix it as the ingrained structural problems mean they can't get elected if they do. Now, if they got a majority and burned it down, that would fix the structural problems but people would rightly argue that was outside of their elected mandate. No win situation.
 
GreyGhost said:
What's your problem? Of course we did. Why does everyone insist on black and white? Seats/transfer payments are clearly set up to push the odds in the liberals favour. That doesn't mean they always win but it does mean they get far more seats than they should.

It has been a structural problem for decades. Nobody is fixing it. JT promised to until he realized that would make it hard for him to win. Cons can't promise to fix it as the ingrained structural problems mean they can't get elected if they do. Now, if they got a majority and burned it down, that would fix the structural problems but people would rightly argue that was outside of their elected mandate. No win situation.
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Go by popular vote.
 
GreyGhost said:
What's your problem? Of course we did. Why does everyone insist on black and white? Seats/transfer payments are clearly set up to push the odds in the liberals favour. That doesn't mean they always win but it does mean they get far more seats than they should.

It has been a structural problem for decades. Nobody is fixing it. JT promised to until he realized that would make it hard for him to win. Cons can't promise to fix it as the ingrained structural problems mean they can't get elected if they do. Now, if they got a majority and burned it down, that would fix the structural problems but people would rightly argue that was outside of their elected mandate. No win situation.
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I’m saying the same system has voted in conservative and liberal governments. Gnashing teeth doesn’t change that. The polling booth is where you change that.
 
jc100 said:
I’m saying the same system has voted in conservative and liberal governments. Gnashing teeth doesn’t change that. The polling booth is where you change that.
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And the polling booth is setup to elect far more liberals than a fair poll of the population would support. Just because the other side is elected means little. It should be statistically fair and it is not. That is by definition undemocratic when your place of residence can vastly change the weight of your vote. The ones with the most weight will be most against changing the weighting. Maybe do it US style with a referendum on the ballot. One vote per person, no weighting. "Should constitution of parliament reflect popular vote." Boom. Done. Democratic. Mostly free from political influence (although I am sure both sides would be pushing for shady confusing wording to effect the outcome).
 
GreyGhost said:
And the polling booth is setup to elect far more liberals than a fair poll of the population would support. That is by definition undemocratic when your place of residence can vastly change the weight of your vote. The ones with the most weight will be most against changing the weighting. Maybe do it US style with a referendum on the ballot. One vote per person, no weighting. "Should constitution of parliament reflect popular vote." Boom. Done. Democratic. Mostly free from political influence (although I am sure both sides would be pushing for shady confusing wording to affect o how did Harper get in if it’s all rigged?the outcome).
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So how did Harper get in if it’s all rigged? Magic?

Maybe a reasonable majority lean left these days? Maybe in the next election enough people that are ticked off will lean right?

One thing is for sure, next election there will be some happy people and some sad people. Many politicians will break promises and behave like idiots. No petition will do any good at that time though.
 
jc100 said:
It’s black and white if the same system voted both in.
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So you deny bias in the system? Or you’re just choosing to be difficult because you are biased?

Boggle. You’re usually a little more open minded there @jc100
 
jc100 said:
Because we have an established democratic procedure where you get to have your say. These petitions are tantrums from people who don’t understand that or don’t vote.
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IT might be established, but effective is another thing all together.
You seem to be putting to much faith in how it should work rather then how it does.
Did you vote for JT to be corrupt, obvious backroom deals and other nonsense?
A vote does nothing to change how are gov operates, it just exchanges one leadership to another, rinse and repeat, and they won't change how the gov works because it benefits themselves and they can sidestep any accountability.
 
Evoex said:
So you deny bias in the system? Or you’re just choosing to be difficult because you are biased?

Boggle. You’re usually a little more open minded there @jc100
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Was the same bias not also there when Harper was voted in? Serious question? I’m not being difficult.

Here’s what changes over time…the electorate may change their perspective and their priorities. It obviously changed to vote in a liberal government after a conservative one. There’s nothing to say that it won’t swing back the other way but due to quite a few factors that’s not looking likely but those factors are more ones of policy and platform, not some mass gerrymandering or corruption.

There’s a whole bunch of voters coming up with new priorities. Many of their priorities are progressive and you may not agree with them. I certainly don’t agree with many of them but if a political party doesn’t appeal to these new, younger voters with different ideals then they won’t get their vote.
 
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jc100 said:
Was the same bias not also there when Harper was voted in? Serious question? I’m not being difficult.

Here’s what changes over time…the electorate may change their perspective. It obviously changed to vote in a liberal government after a conservative one. There’s nothing to say that it won’t swing back the other way but due to quite a few factors that’s not looking likely but those factors are more ones of policy and platform, not some mass gerrymandering or corruption.

There’s a whole bunch of voters coming up with new priorities. Many of their priorities are progressive and you may not agree with them. I certainly don’t agree with many of them but if a political party doesn’t appeal to these new, younger voters with different ideals then they won’t get their vote.
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IMO, the vote swing is immaterial to the point he was making, same with the whether Harper or any other Conservative MPs formed a government since it was last changed. If you somehow run a 550cc bike in a 500 class, you may not always win but you have an ‘unfair advantage’ nonetheless.

This country is divided politically whether we want to admit it or not. There are seats in certain provinces that will bleed red or blue and it doesn’t matter if the masses are upset with the status quo, they won’t change their vote on principle. I’m fine with that because I won’t (at least up until now) change my vote on principle. What sucks is that if you bleed orange it seems like in these non swing seats you may as well not even show up, because your vote ‘doesn’t matter’. Now if we can agree that there is a disproportionate number of seats in certain areas and those areas historically do not swing their vote, then I think logically one can surmise that there is an unfair advantage at play.

Personally I think our system is dumb, irregardless of any unfair advantage. Why we are okay with parties winning the popular vote but still losing baffles me.
 
Some things to chew over…

The new voters were 10/11 years old the last time the Conservatives were in. They are one of the first generations that faces never owning a home in their lifetimes so for them things to do with mortgages and home ownership may not mean as much as they do to you and I. That’s just one of the stark differences.
 
jc100 said:
Because we have an established democratic procedure where you get to have your say. These petitions are tantrums from people who don’t understand that or don’t vote.
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There are provinces that have legislation that enables voters to recall elected officials, there have been attempts to implement that federally, bill c269,but it never passed.

A petition is used to draw attention to an issue of public interest or concern and to request that the House of Commons, the Government of Canada, a Minister of the Crown, or a Member of the Parliament take or refrain from some action.

A federal petition, like the one in question, is used to raise govt awareness of a concern or proposal. The one noted above is a legitimate use of a petition.
 
Wingboy said:
Due to popular opinion, political threads like this are not going to tt unless they contain insults or flaming.
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It look like petitions work in some places!

Thanks for the openmindedness.
 
jc100 said:
It’s black and white if the same system voted both in.
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The system is the same, but the odds are stacked in favour of liberals.

If you wanted to level the playing field, add a few federal ridings to Edmonton.
 
Evoex said:
IMO, the vote swing is immaterial to the point he was making, same with the whether Harper or any other Conservative MPs formed a government since it was last changed. If you somehow run a 550cc bike in a 500 class, you may not always win but you have an ‘unfair advantage’ nonetheless.

this country is divided politically whether we want to admit it or not. There are seats in certain provinces that will bleed red or blue and it doesn’t matter if the masses are upset with the status quo, they won’t change their vote on principle. I’m fine with that because I won’t (at least up until now) change my vote on principle. What sucks is that if you bleed orange it seems like in these no. Swing seats you may as well not even show up, because your voter ‘doesn’t matter’. Now if we can agree that there is a disproportionate number of seats in certain areas and those areas historically do not swing their vote, then I think logically one can surmise that there is an unfair advantage at play.

Personally I think our system is dumb, irregardless of any unfair advantage. Why we are okay with parties winning the popular vote but still losing baffles me.
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That’s a totally valid point. Thing is look around the world what other voting systems tend to get you these days. Endless coalition governments where minority parties have an undue influence on policy.
 
jc100 said:
That’s a totally valid point. Thing is look around the world what other voting systems tend to get you these days. Endless coalition governments where minority parties have an undue influence on policy.
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What do we have now? A left coalition.

Coalitions work for the parties that can form a govt, they don’t always work for the people, and they can never follow a mandate.

I’d prefer no coalitions, and if that’s a non starter, a democratic process that allows a riding to recall their elected representative. At least that way MPs won’t be forced to vote on party lines just to keep power.
 
Mad Mike said:
There are provinces that have legislation that enables voters to recall elected officials, there have been attempts to implement that federally, bill c269,but it never passed.

A petition is used to draw attention to an issue of public interest or concern and to request that the House of Commons, the Government of Canada, a Minister of the Crown, or a Member of the Parliament take or refrain from some action.

A federal petition, like the one in question, is used to raise govt awareness of a concern or proposal. The one noted above is a legitimate use of a petition.
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So why bother with elections then if you can just petition to remove a sitting prime minister forcing another general election? You’d have a petition every few months ad infinitum. It’s la la land and most people understand that.

Times change. If the cons want to get in they should change policies to appeal to more people. That’s how politics works. Same for the libs, if they want less people moaning and bitching they should ditch Trudeau.
 
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