Except the fuels that have lead are the ones that make more power, nothing to do with the lead content. MR12 is the closest thing to HP in a can and its leaded.
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PC5 Auto-tune
- Thread starter Shaman
- Start date
Except the fuels that have lead are the ones that make more power, nothing to do with the lead content. MR12 is the closest thing to HP in a can and its leaded.
Z1 is an excellent tuner and trust me he has kept up with the times. Always 3 sides to a story
Shaman
Well-known member
But I spent the money and didn't get what I should have, so I made the choice to move on.
Anyway. Your warning was correct, the bike ran like a bag of hammers and would not make power above 10,000 rpm with the autotune on. Lost the front in 4 when the engine burped and got it back by throwing the bike up and away from me on my knee, which stood it up enough to give me grip. Last person I saw go off there still can't use her left arm. Good times. So I have a map in it that is as close as I could find and that'll have to do me for the weekend. I might try the auto tuner again with just a 5% limiter but only if the bike isn't making any power. I was quickest in segment, riding the bike in 5th gear to keep the revs down so the engine wouldn't burp... 1:59.x was my lap times, so if the bike will run properly tomorrow I am pretty confident that I can better that... significantly,
If that fails, I fixed the header leaks; changed the oil in the 1000... I'll just run that in Open Sprint and drop AM 600, which I hate to do but... wtf
Unless some others show up for tomorrow, looks like Raniowski is my only real competition. The only riders I saw braking two minutes was Jim Proulx and the Doc, but I didn't scrutinize the sheets that carefully and left well before the day was up so that I could get back to Kingston. Also, had to drop off a friend who experienced his first track crash and will be hobbling around for a few weeks on a badly sprained and possibly fractured ankle. All in all, I had reasons to take a day off work and run the Fri. practice for once, and glad I did.
Anyway. Your warning was correct, the bike ran like a bag of hammers and would not make power above 10,000 rpm with the autotune on. Lost the front in 4 when the engine burped and got it back by throwing the bike up and away from me on my knee, which stood it up enough to give me grip. Last person I saw go off there still can't use her left arm. Good times. So I have a map in it that is as close as I could find and that'll have to do me for the weekend. I might try the auto tuner again with just a 5% limiter but only if the bike isn't making any power. I was quickest in segment, riding the bike in 5th gear to keep the revs down so the engine wouldn't burp... 1:59.x was my lap times, so if the bike will run properly tomorrow I am pretty confident that I can better that... significantly,
If that fails, I fixed the header leaks; changed the oil in the 1000... I'll just run that in Open Sprint and drop AM 600, which I hate to do but... wtf Unless some others show up for tomorrow, looks like Raniowski is my only real competition. The only riders I saw braking two minutes was Jim Proulx and the Doc, but I didn't scrutinize the sheets that carefully and left well before the day was up so that I could get back to Kingston. Also, had to drop off a friend who experienced his first track crash and will be hobbling around for a few weeks on a badly sprained and possibly fractured ankle. All in all, I had reasons to take a day off work and run the Fri. practice for once, and glad I did.
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...dafuq dude
But I spent the money and didn't get what I should have, so I made the choice to move on.
Anyway. Your warning was correct, the bike ran like a bag of hammers and would not make power above 10,000 rpm with the autotune on. Lost the front in 4 when the engine burped and got it back by throwing the bike up and away from me on my knee, which stood it up enough to give me grip. Last person I saw go off there still can't use her left arm. Good times. So I have a map in it that is as close as I could find and that'll have to do me for the weekend. I might try the auto tuner again with just a 5% limiter but only if the bike isn't making any power. I was quickest in segment, riding the bike in 5th gear to keep the revs down so the engine wouldn't burp... 1:59.x was my lap times, so if the bike will run properly tomorrow I am pretty confident that I can better that... significantly,
Unless some others show up for tomorrow, looks like Raniowski is my only real competition. The only riders I saw braking two minutes was Jim Proulx and the Doc, but I didn't scrutinize the sheets that carefully and left well before the day was up so that I could get back to Kingston. Also, had to drop off a friend who experienced his first track crash and will be hobbling around for a few weeks on a badly sprained and possibly fractured ankle. All in all, I had reasons to take a day off work and run the Fri. practice for once, and glad I did.
But your 600 engine is "tired" so what's your compression like? Do you have leaking valves? Injectors plugged up? Throttle bodies not synced? There could be 50 things that are making the bike unable to be tuned correctly that has nothing to do with the tuner. Unless the bike was fully serviced by Z1 then you didn't get what you paid for but if not it's hard to lay blame on them. If you dropped the bike off and asked for a tune than they can only do what they can with the bike the way it is.
Also there's quite a few people well under 2:00 as there should be.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
What I've read is that the autotune works well for track tuning. But it isn't a quick/fast process, more than a session or two and it's done type of thing. Lots of time is recommended before accepting built up trim values.
While some people recommend using a dyno to build the base map, others have built quality maps just with the autotune on the street/track. A dyno cannot account for the ram air effect at speed, for example.
There are some basic conditions to use autotune as well. Have a warm up time before use so that the AT runs only when the engine temp up to operating temperature. I have a on/off switch wired in for the autotune trigger. Do not populate the near idle cells or 0% throttle cells in the AFR map.
There is a PCV AT map on the DJ map database for aftermarket cams. May be a place to start.
Kyle USA has positive and detailed PCV AT track experience, for example.
http://www.rogueracing.org/pcv.htm
With the bike running badly, it sounds like there is more going on to cause the issues than the autotune.
While some people recommend using a dyno to build the base map, others have built quality maps just with the autotune on the street/track. A dyno cannot account for the ram air effect at speed, for example.
There are some basic conditions to use autotune as well. Have a warm up time before use so that the AT runs only when the engine temp up to operating temperature. I have a on/off switch wired in for the autotune trigger. Do not populate the near idle cells or 0% throttle cells in the AFR map.
There is a PCV AT map on the DJ map database for aftermarket cams. May be a place to start.
Kyle USA has positive and detailed PCV AT track experience, for example.
http://www.rogueracing.org/pcv.htm
With the bike running badly, it sounds like there is more going on to cause the issues than the autotune.
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I'll say it again, auto tune is not fast enough to build a map while riding on the track, period. Your throttle inputs are far to varied for the system to keep up. You can build a map but it'll be ****. Talk to people that know what their doing and they'll all say the same thing.
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When I had my bike in at Fast Company I asked Scott about the ram air as I noticed he doesn't have any high speed fans to simulate wind. He said it doesn't make much difference. You'd be lucky to gain 1psi. He said Akrapovic did a bunch of testing, trying to make maps that would account for the ram air effect and after finding that it was very negligible they abandoned the efforts. On FI bikes the MAP and IAT sensors allow the ECU to do some calculations and compensate a bit also.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
Ram air is significant. The detailed Sport Rider ram air tests have shown such for years now.
It doesn't matter how many times you say it again. People can disagree, though reposting your feedback with a vague reference doesn't make it more correct.
I've found enough examples of people building AT maps which work well, and my earlier posted link compared an AT track map to previous dyno built maps on the same bike. In your case I guess Kyle USA doesn't know what they are doing.
I've found that people have had success both ways in building maps (dyno and AT riding). But AT riding takes some time to build the map, and lots of people do it incorrectly.
If you have any specific examples to show AT doesn't work then post em up. More info to read is never a bad thing. I've done research and reading on this, and the examples I've found with bad results have been poorly conducted or lack detailed information from which to draw any significant conclusions.
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From what I've learned an engine sucks in air faster than you can blow air into it
I had a bike Dyno tuned, used the AT at the track to try and "perfect" the map, the bike became terrible to ride, we put it back on the Dyno and the AFR was ****ed.
Talk to guys that build bikes for a living and they'll tell you how useless it is on the track. I've also chatted with Kyle a few times and I'd be very surprised if he recommended AT over a DT for the track.
So my personal experience and chatting with tuners I've come to my conclusion. If you want to spend the money to figure it out for yourself be my guest. I'll sell you the bazzaz AT for $100, you just need a new sensor.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
Strange and very abnormal experience.
Do you mean the AFR table? AFR's don't get ****ed on a PCV AT, as they don't change from the user selected inputs, ever. Maybe the map became corrupted at some point, but AFRs don't change on the PCV with any AT use. I've never seen a post on that before so it certainly isn't normal by any means. Normal AT use does not result in such issues.
Or do you mean AT AFR vs dyno AFR? The AT 02 sensor location is important. Dynojet has a guide, and even following that there can be issues with a position selected (a dead spot, poor or turbulent exhaust gas flow). And I've seen a few people post specific examples of that, where poor AT experience was rectified by relocating the 02 sensor bung to another spot on the header. Another potential issue is a bad 02 sensor. It happens, and I'd check this in detail before reporting problems, which most people don't do.
AT was not recommended over DT for the track, to be specific, but as can be seen in link it was noted that AT worked just as well as dyno tuning, with much less effort.
I'm currently running a dual channel AT PCV setup with an external switch, cylinder advanced (individual cylinder) and gear advanced mapping. It's working quite well for me, but I need more time to build out the map as it is being done on the street, not track.
Do you mean the AFR table? AFR's don't get ****ed on a PCV AT, as they don't change from the user selected inputs, ever. Maybe the map became corrupted at some point, but AFRs don't change on the PCV with any AT use. I've never seen a post on that before so it certainly isn't normal by any means. Normal AT use does not result in such issues.
Or do you mean AT AFR vs dyno AFR? The AT 02 sensor location is important. Dynojet has a guide, and even following that there can be issues with a position selected (a dead spot, poor or turbulent exhaust gas flow). And I've seen a few people post specific examples of that, where poor AT experience was rectified by relocating the 02 sensor bung to another spot on the header. Another potential issue is a bad 02 sensor. It happens, and I'd check this in detail before reporting problems, which most people don't do.
AT was not recommended over DT for the track, to be specific, but as can be seen in link it was noted that AT worked just as well as dyno tuning, with much less effort.
I'm currently running a dual channel AT PCV setup with an external switch, cylinder advanced (individual cylinder) and gear advanced mapping. It's working quite well for me, but I need more time to build out the map as it is being done on the street, not track.
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Shaman
Well-known member
The bike was cutting power so HARD today that I literally smashed my junk on the tank. It's not a subtle thing.
So... yeah. @#$% AT at the moment. Maybe (maybe) it'll work with like a 5% adjustment maximum.
As for Z1, I had him do a full tune meaning valve set, intake sync and dyno tune. Compression was checked and it was within reason. What I got didn't work the way it should have. Your milage may vary?
So... yeah. @#$% AT at the moment. Maybe (maybe) it'll work with like a 5% adjustment maximum.
As for Z1, I had him do a full tune meaning valve set, intake sync and dyno tune. Compression was checked and it was within reason. What I got didn't work the way it should have. Your milage may vary?
kwtoxman
Well-known member
???? That makes no sense.
The PCV AT reports trim values in tables wrt fuel when using whatever loaded base fuel map, which it does to achieve the AFR you designate in the AFR table (for throttle position vs rpm). If you accept the trim values, it permanently changes the base fuel map using the historical trim readings. There is no messing up or changing of the AFR.
Something is not working properly. But there are many things which may be causing the problem. Can't narrow it down much at this point.
If it ran much better with the AT off, what are the AT settings (all of them)? What are the trim table values reported? How does it compare to the base map (and provide detail on which base map is being used).
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.....am I reading this right?
When the AT suggests values its to correct your AFT to whatever setting you set it to. If the suggested values are incorrect your AFR will not be set to your desired value. The whole point of the AT is to get your AFR set...
I told the box I wanted a 13.0 AFR. After I accepted the values (after 3-4 sessions) I ended up afr's all over the place. I don't remember the exact numbers as this was 2 years ago.
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J
Whar was his reason for not getting it tuned properly? I'm sure if this happens constantly at 10,000rpm he would have felt it on the Dyno.
kwtoxman
Well-known member
Not really for the AT PCV. The PCV has alternate fuel table(s). For the Autotune it suggests alternate fuel values in the trim tables to correct the fueling to reach the desired AFR #'s set in the AFR table. The trim values are the fuel difference from the base fuel map to reach the AFR map values. Accepting the trim values adjusts the base map values. AFRs and the AFR table never change.
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kwtoxman
Well-known member
Reminds me of earlier info I missed. OP, if the dyno fuel map from Z1 had issues, don't expect AT to be able to fix it. There is no magical solution AT can offer. When done well, both produce similar results. Again, it sounds like something else is causing an issue which fuel mapping cannot fix. If you still think there is no other problem and it is a bad map on the bike, then AT needs time or try another place that can do dyno maps.
Not really. When the AT is on the bike actively adjusts in real-time the base fuel map to meet the AFR map values, reporting these changes as trim values. The bike is essentially always trimming when the AT is on to reach the AFR map values. And this is the case whether or not trim values have been accepted in the PCV.
And so by accepting the trim values you are not changing the way the bike fueled itself before when the AT was on and it was adjusting by the trim values, at least until new trim values are populated on the new base fuel map. And if the bike runs poorer with new trim values (and new map) then one can easily remove them by turning the AT off, or by zeroing the trim values. If you want to fine tune build a great map, basically many people recommend downloading the PCV maps from the bike over time as you build a map (or maps) (trims and fuel tables) so you can easily track what is happening, adjust values when necessary, and optimize. More work, but more optimization.
And the AFR # in the software should accurately measure the AFR in the gases expelled in the exhaust. If not, you have a problem (mentioned earlier).
Note the fuel changes as described earlier are within the constraints of a max fuel adjustment value wrt the base map being used (the max fuel adjustment value is a software setting and adjustable, with default set at + or - 20). When you accept the trim values it makes a new base map using the original fuel map with the trim changes applied and the trim tables zeroed. And then the new base map will allow a new fuel trim adjustment (aka trim value map). So, for example, from a base fuel map cell value of 7 the corresponding equivalent max trim cell value could be +20. So when trims are accepted that base fuel map cell value changes from 7 to 27 and the trim table is zeroed. Now the base fuel map can again allow a max trim value of + or - 20 from that new map value of 27. So if 33 was needed for the ideal base fuel map, it will now get to it.
When AT is off, the AFR is no longer being applied and as such it may change since fixed fuel mapping is now being used. As well the PCV runs the base fuel map and only the base fuel map, it does not take into any account the trim values and trim maps. So when the AT is off, fueling is now fixed and the AFR may wander. That is why the AFR table and trim tables disappear in the software when the AT is turned off (unless you override the autotune tables being invisible when AT is not enabled/on, in which case it is there but the folder description text is dimmed).
Here are some links that provide some good info on AT map building. I don't agree with all the info provided, but there are some consistent good points across all links.
How to Use the PCV autotune to create a GOOD map and reduce backfiring - Yamaha Star Stryker Motorcycle Forum
Power Commander V with Autotune - Trim Suggestions
Yamaha R6 Forum: YZF-R6 Forums - View Single Post - R6 FAQ, Fuel Controllers, Exhaust, Maps
One consistent point I find in the links above and other detailed posts, is that large fuel changes and especially clustered swings should be considered a potential red flag. Good info there.
It's a flexible system that DJ is using with the PCV and AT. Put a map in, run autotune, if it runs worse then adjust or get rid of the trim values, or turn AT off. The original base map is still there and can be retrieved and used. If the autotune updates work well accept the trim values and you have your new map. Before accepting the trim values, you essentially have two map choices on the bike that you can use. Selectable by whether AT is on of off.
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