Ontarios Debt.

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backmarkerducati said:
Here are just a couple since I am in a hurry:

-While people may have wanted "investment in education" this should not mean massive wage increases. Investing in education logically should be more teachers and better schools not necessarily more money for the existing teachers. When one looks at the number of un and under employed teachers supply and demand is broken so wage increases on the scale they did were unjustified, while little was actually accomplished on class size etc.. But I do not want to single out the teachers, this has been seen across the board in the public sector in Ontario (teachers are just one example), he bought union votes and union peace via big union wage increases and the expense of the tax payers. Ontario public sector

-You were pretty dismissive of the hydro plants/ORNGE/EHealth but on his watch all of these things happen, and this is waste and with maybe corruption as the median. Just on the Hydro plants, proroguing the legislature had a lot to do with covering this up and protecting the his energy guy from possible jail time as it did anything else. If he did not prorogue when he did the Energy Minister would have faced contempt of the legislature charges OR he would have had to come clean. Lose - Lose for the Liberals so prorogue it was to save their own.

-Brings us to proroguing the legislature, quickly covered the hydro plant deal above. How can anyone call his actions anything other than what it was, a coverup, and with his government about to fall, prorogue to save the party. Not like they are the only ones to do it (fed cons), but we are talking about the Ontario Liberals...

-Full Day Kindergarten, now this one was a great example of unintended consequences (and more money waste). His idea was instead of investing in childcare lets just take part of it over. Now the teachers said this was a bad idea and the curriculum was more than lacking, but in his mind what do they know HE is the education premier... What has happened, they mostly targeted low income areas first. This took the 4 and 5 year old out of daycare and into full day "care" at the school. These kids were the bread and butter of the daycares, based on age the number of daycare workers decreases (by law) as the kids get older. So this took the money makers out of the hands of the daycares leaving them with only the operationally more expensive younger kids. This has actually closed daycares and in general made daycare harder to get for low income families! Yet he just kept plowing forward...

the list goes on but this post is long enough
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Sure, there's always something to criticise. I still don't see how any of this makes him to blame for the debt load. Nor does it support accusations of "fiberals"(TM Toronto Sun) or of corruption, just slimy politics like I said. In any case parliament has been back in session for three months, we'll see if anything comes of these accusations or not.
 
fastar1 said:
Sure, there's always something to criticise. I still don't see how any of this makes him to blame for the debt load. Nor does it support accusations of "fiberals"(TM Toronto Sun) or of corruption, just slimy politics like I said. In any case parliament has been back in session for three months, we'll see if anything comes of these accusations or not.
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So when he told the teachers unions that he would not touch them in exchange for their support prior to the last election he was not losing?

When he ran a fear campaign about how the PCs were going to make public sector cuts and he wouldn't he was not lieing?

Wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayers money to cancel power plants to save a few seats was not corruption and had no impact on debt (some sort magic free money)?

Covering up the power plant deals was in no way corrupt?

Continuing to hand out fat public sector contracts after 2008 in no way increased Ontario spending and debt load? Same contracts BTW helped him get the votes of the unions. This BTW is a massive legacy opex that will have an impact for a long time after he is gone.

Approving the purchase of helicopters that the EMTs said were no good because they could not do CPR on them, and now spending taxpayers money to retrofit them was cost free. Then what about the fat kick backs the ornge execs got, what about the occ chopper......

Billion on ehealth was all free money as well?

These are just the obvious......
 
Why is it that anytime debt or economy is brought up, a line in the sand is drawn between Liberals and Conservatives?
PLEASE, the bi-partisanship has to stop!! To say Liberals brought us to this debt level is naive...to say "had the PC's been in power, we'd be rolling in money" is also absurd. This is not about which political party is in power. This is about politicians who look out for themselves and re-election votes and not thinking about long term welfare of the city, region, province, country etc. Saddling our countyr with long term debt that our great grand-kids will be paying off so we can live in luxury right now is criminal!
 
backmarkerducati said:
So when he told the teachers unions that he would not touch them in exchange for their support prior to the last election he was not losing?

When he ran a fear campaign about how the PCs were going to make public sector cuts and he wouldn't he was not lieing?
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1 - Show me what you're talking about so I can judge. Changing opinions is not lying BTW. Harper once said he wouldn't nominate anyone to the senate, but he did eventually and I don't blame him.

Wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayers money to cancel power plants to save a few seats was not corruption and had no impact on debt (some sort magic free money)?
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2- Politicians "buy" votes all the time. Some people call it democracy in action. I call it slimy, not scandalous. In any case, everything the government does costs money, that doesn't automatically mean they are causing the debt crisis!

Covering up the power plant deals was in no way corrupt?
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3- What coverup? It took some time to find the documents but they're all out there. If have something that shows a coverup, show me.

Continuing to hand out fat public sector contracts after 2008 in no way increased Ontario spending and debt load? Same contracts BTW helped him get the votes of the unions. This BTW is a massive legacy opex that will have an impact for a long time after he is gone.
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See response 2. If you're stating it's a scandal, show me the evidence.

Approving the purchase of helicopters that the EMTs said were no good because they could not do CPR on them, and now spending taxpayers money to retrofit them was cost free. Then what about the fat kick backs the ornge execs got, what about the occ chopper......
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4- Show me what you're talking about. I'm getting hoarse repeating myself. The information I have on the problems at ORNGE and does not paint a bad picture of the government.

Billion on ehealth was all free money as well?
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5- Ehealth was a mess, sure. Did it cause the debt load to skyrocket? Not even close. You'd need to completely eliminate and recover all past costs for a dozen ehealth-like programs, every year, before wrestling the deficit back under control after 2008. As they say, "it's the economy stupid".

These are just the obvious......
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None of it is obvious. I researched it myself because none of the whiners here will back up their statements. Here's how you support your arguments:
Ehealth fiasco: http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/reports_en/ehealth_en.pdf
Ontario debt: http://www.ofina.on.ca/borrowing_debt/borrowhistory.htm

SHOW ME what your complaints are that validate blaming McGuinty for the debt, or scandals, or lies. I will read your arguments but I'm not going to keep repeating myself forever.
 
Red_Liner740 said:
This is about politicians who look out for themselves and re-election votes and not thinking about long term welfare of the city, region, province, country etc.
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Exactly. The political system is set up for the short term view. Political parties are kind of forced to play that game. What we need is a long term benevolent dicktater and annual reviews. Every year the kind leader must be compelled to aks "How's my dicktate"?
 
Red_Liner740 said:
Why is it that anytime debt or economy is brought up, a line in the sand is drawn between Liberals and Conservatives?
PLEASE, the bi-partisanship has to stop!!
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Actually, bipartisanship has to start. ;)
 
are you referring to the fact that we have more than two political parties? Thats a joke...its the same thing as US....majority of people arent even aware that there are other parties than Democrats and Republicans....

Yes, we have three major parties everyone knows of, Libs, PC and the NDP, who in my mind are off their rockers, but anywho....When it comes to voting, everyone goes to Libs or PC's....unless they want to throw their vote away in which case they vote Green Party.
 
Red_Liner740 said:
are you referring to the fact that we have more than two political parties? Thats a joke...its the same thing as US....majority of people arent even aware that there are other parties than Democrats and Republicans....

Yes, we have three major parties everyone knows of, Libs, PC and the NDP, who in my mind are off their rockers, but anywho....When it comes to voting, everyone goes to Libs or PC's....unless they want to throw their vote away in which case they vote Green Party.
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The NDP is the most honest party because they've never been in a position to corrupt anything.
 
Red_Liner740 said:
are you referring to the fact that we have more than two political parties? Thats a joke...its the same thing as US....majority of people arent even aware that there are other parties than Democrats and Republicans....

Yes, we have three major parties everyone knows of, Libs, PC and the NDP, who in my mind are off their rockers, but anywho....When it comes to voting, everyone goes to Libs or PC's....unless they want to throw their vote away in which case they vote Green Party.
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I was poking fun at you for using the improper term in your post. Bipartisanship is when political parties work together in compromise... Its a good thing.

What you meant was that partisanship needs to stop...
 
you're correct, i was using the term improperly, thanks for that.



mmmnaked said:
I was poking fun at you for using the improper term in your post. Bipartisanship is when political parties work together in compromise... Its a good thing.

What you meant was that partisanship needs to stop...
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matt220 said:
<Sarcasm>
Yeah, Ontario is so cheap...
What are the prices of tiny homes in a ghetto area? $500,000 you say? That's pocket change!
Car insurance for a 20 year old with a clean record? $6500/year for an old s#it box? What a deal!
Ontario is very affordable.
</Sarcasm>
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Really?
Ontario isn't only Toronto.
For 240 000$ you can afford a 1 acre land, 5 bedrooms, triple car garage, outside Toronto.
For 3 500$, I pay insurance on two car and one motorcycle.
And to the one that put France on the cheaper side compared to Canada, then why the **** french people move in Canada and keep saying they have a better life here than they had in France?
 
vince492 said:
Really?
Ontario isn't only Toronto.
For 240 000$ you can afford a 1 acre land, 5 bedrooms, triple car garage, outside Toronto.
For 3 500$, I pay insurance on two car and one motorcycle.
And to the one that put France on the cheaper side compared to Canada, then why the **** french people move in Canada and keep saying they have a better life here than they had in France?
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can you show me a link to this "house" with this "land"
 
fastar1 said:
1 - Show me what you're talking about so I can judge. Changing opinions is not lying BTW. Harper once said he wouldn't nominate anyone to the senate, but he did eventually and I don't blame him.

2- Politicians "buy" votes all the time. Some people call it democracy in action. I call it slimy, not scandalous. In any case, everything the government does costs money, that doesn't automatically mean they are causing the debt crisis!

3- What coverup? It took some time to find the documents but they're all out there. If have something that shows a coverup, show me.

See response 2. If you're stating it's a scandal, show me the evidence.

4- Show me what you're talking about. I'm getting hoarse repeating myself. The information I have on the problems at ORNGE and does not paint a bad picture of the government.

5- Ehealth was a mess, sure. Did it cause the debt load to skyrocket? Not even close. You'd need to completely eliminate and recover all past costs for a dozen ehealth-like programs, every year, before wrestling the deficit back under control after 2008. As they say, "it's the economy stupid".

None of it is obvious. I researched it myself because none of the whiners here will back up their statements. Here's how you support your arguments:
Ehealth fiasco: http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/reports_en/ehealth_en.pdf
Ontario debt: http://www.ofina.on.ca/borrowing_debt/borrowhistory.htm

SHOW ME what your complaints are that validate blaming McGuinty for the debt, or scandals, or lies. I will read your arguments but I'm not going to keep repeating myself forever.
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We show you then you say show me......

It is well documented about what he told the unions and then what he did right after he was elected, if you missed that well I just don't know... If this is not lieing I am socked. ETFO even ran big pro-Mcguinty ads based on what he told them, they all tied into his fear campaign about how the PCs were going to cut cut cut...

Proroguing the legislature so he did not have to release the power plant costs is not a cover-up...again I am shocked.

Yes Harper is crap, but we are not talking about Harper. But take a look at the debt increase stats and the current growth rate for Ontario vs Canada and decide for yourself.

When he took power we were a have province, we are now a have-not, I guess that is all someone elses fault. There was nothing he could have done to stop that.... The debt charts have been posted and there is lots of info online.

Last teachers contract before the current mandated one had a 10.4% pay increase over 4 years, this was a contract negotiated after the economic downturn when most other people were taking pay freezes and cuts. The way the teachers pay scales work the actual average increases were much higher. This was repeated more or less across the public sector. Big pay increases even after it was obvious there was a problem...

Sunshine list continues to grow.... Again all some other outside force and the big contracts post downturn do not factor in at all.

That is the last show me I will do for you. Obviously we disagree on this and my bar for waste, lieing and corruption is in a much different place than yours, so be it.
 
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backmarkerducati said:
We show you then you say show me......

It is well documented about what he told the unions and then what he did right after he was elected, if you missed that well I just don't know... If this is not lieing I am socked. ETFO even ran big pro-Mcguinty ads based on what he told them, they all tied into his fear campaign about how the PCs were going to cut cut cut...

Proroguing the legislature so he did not have to release the power plant costs is not a cover-up...again I am shocked.

Yes Harper is crap, but we are not talking about Harper. But take a look at the debt increase stats and the current growth rate for Ontario vs Canada and decide for yourself.

When he took power we were a have province, we are now a have-not, I guess that is all someone elses fault. There was nothing he could have done to stop that.... The debt charts have been posted and there is lots of info online.

Last teachers contract before the current mandated one had a 10.4% pay increase over 4 years, this was a contract negotiated after the economic downturn when most other people were taking pay freezes and cuts. The way the teachers pay scales work the actual average increases were much higher. This was repeated more or less across the public sector. Big pay increases even after it was obvious there was a problem...

Sunshine list continues to grow.... Again all some other outside force and the big contracts post downturn do not factor in at all.

That is the last show me I will do for you. Obviously we disagree on this and my bar for waste, lieing and corruption is in a much different place than yours, so be it.
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I'm not actually interested in the argument about waste, lying, or corruption. I'm interested in people talking out there ***es. I only got into this because someone was blaming McG for the debt load (even though it was declining before the crash). I've shown evidence twice now to support my view against the debt claim. That is the subject of the thread, BTW. You have only posted words.
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