Ontario plans to trial universal basic income

It is a concept worth investigating, not saying it will work but worth investigating. Many here that just denounce it are the same genius squad that support the guys that say Supply Side Economics works, it has been tried large scale and it does not work, just cranks up national debt (we are already way left of peak on the Laffer curve)..

In theory this should dramatically reduce crime (notice how crime tracks to areas with lower income), so a benefit should be much lower police budgets. Health care costs should also be offset, in theory since they also track to income (inversely). The idea would also be that motivated people still want more, so they will still excel to get more.

Now on the other side, if say $2,000 a month becomes the min, will all other costs just escalate until $2,000 is now equal to zero? What will the lazy people do, just sit around and do nothing (pretty much like today), will this create more lazy people???
 
backmarkerducati said:
It is a concept worth investigating, not saying it will work but worth investigating. Many here that just denounce it are the same genius squad that support the guys that say Supply Side Economics works, it has been tried large scale and it does not work, just cranks up national debt (we are already way left of peak on the Laffer curve)..

In theory this should dramatically reduce crime (notice how crime tracks to areas with lower income), so a benefit should be much lower police budgets. Health care costs should also be offset, in theory since they also track to income (inversely). The idea would also be that motivated people still want more, so they will still excel to get more.

Now on the other side, if say $2,000 a month becomes the min, will all other costs just escalate until $2,000 is now equal to zero? What will the lazy people do, just sit around and do nothing (pretty much like today), will this create more lazy people???
Click to expand...

Isn't this just pooling together welfare/food stamp programs, and lump it into a payment to everyone?
 
So I own a business. I'm going to stop paying myself and collect cheques. I have a lot of capital invested in the business so I can withdraw money as a repayment to shareholder loan for next 10 years. Abuse will be overwhelming. Do you think minimum wage employees will want to work?
 
backmarkerducati said:
Now on the other side, if say $2,000 a month becomes the min, will all other costs just escalate until $2,000 is now equal to zero? What will the lazy people do, just sit around and do nothing (pretty much like today), will this create more lazy people???
Click to expand...

That's my concern, the devaluation of existing savings. When we were kids we'd say "hey, why doesn't the government just give everybody $100,000?" or when women used to float the idea of paid housework and child rearing. Insane. I think it's best, considering human nature, to keep people mostly responsible for their own welfare. Unfortunately government policies created a climate where it's unnecessarily hard to do that.
 
LiNK666 said:
So I own a business. I'm going to stop paying myself and collect cheques. I have a lot of capital invested in the business so I can withdraw money as a repayment to shareholder loan for next 10 years. Abuse will be overwhelming. Do you think minimum wage employees will want to work?
Click to expand...

Well anything like this will require drastic changes to the tax code to close those holes. In fact, those changes are needed without this.

As for min wage workers. The slackers will/may decide, hey 2K (or whatever it is) is enough and they will likely just sit in their "house on wheels", drinking, smoking, tokeing, etc.. get on their electric scooter (welfare hog) to get more, maybe not much different than today??? The others will see that they now make twice as much money and will like the new lifestyle and they will keep at it. It may possibly weed out the slackers and the quality of the min wage worker might improve? Personally I cannot predict, because I do not know--no one really does until the experiment take place in today's society.

One thing that will have a huge impact is where the cutoff is. Worst case, it is 2K per month, if you do not work you get 2K, if you make 1999 in the month you get $1, I am pretty sure that will fail! The other extreme, everyone regardless of income gets 2K, well there is still strong motivation for people to work and the 1999 per month person now gets 3999... slacker is still at 2K--but now we are giving 2K per month to millionaires. Somewhere in between where they start to decrease it at say 4K income with zero benefit at 10K per month on a sliding scale is likely better yet.
 
I think that one of the key considerations for such a program is that there is a cost to administering welfare/food stamps. This could potentially in theory maybe kinda reduce those costs (might increase the amount of work the CRA has to do)
 
TwistedKestrel said:
I think that one of the key considerations for such a program is that there is a cost to administering welfare/food stamps. This could potentially in theory maybe kinda reduce those costs (might increase the amount of work the CRA has to do)
Click to expand...

For it to make any kind of sense, pretty much all social assistance $$$ programs go away, including things like EI, CPP and ORPP (ooops, but that cuts "revenue" streams). There may still need to be some sort of disability top up, maybe. As noted, policing should also dramatically (in theory) drop in cost since crime and economics have a direct relationship. I am sure they could in theory drop all kinds of costs centres.... and hey, no need for EI for all the unemployed gov workers, they have a guaranteed income...

Not saying this is a great idea but it is no worse than supply side economics...
 
So long as I get my $2k/month same as the guy that doesn't do anything all day long I'm willing to see this through. Otherwise it's not fair to those of us who work our ***** off, while the lazy bums get paid. However I see home pricing go through the roof once this hits in because now disposable income just skyrocketed for the general populace...time to ramp up home search...
 
If Ontario wasn't viewed as a mismanaged turd show before, this should cement out place in the world.

Money for nothing, should be a song in there.....
 
mimico_polak said:
So long as I get my $2k/month same as the guy that doesn't do anything all day long I'm willing to see this through. Otherwise it's not fair to those of us who work our ***** off, while the lazy bums get paid. However I see home pricing go through the roof once this hits in because now disposable income just skyrocketed for the general populace...time to ramp up home search...
Click to expand...

You'll get $2k a month (or whatever it is), but anyone middle class and higher will be paying more than $2k per month extra in taxes to fund this -- otherwise where will the money come from?

Some will come from the savings realized in removing bureaucracy, but I doubt there would be nearly enough to cover the costs of this program. Tax the rich or businesses too much and they'll pack up and leave. So no doubt it'll come on the backs that are right in the middle -- those that are too poor to pack up and leave.
 
Motorcycle Mike said:
You'll get $2k a month (or whatever it is), but anyone middle class and higher will be paying more than $2k per month extra in taxes to fund this -- otherwise where will the money come from?

Some will come from the savings realized in removing bureaucracy, but I doubt there would be nearly enough to cover the costs of this program. Tax the rich or businesses too much and they'll pack up and leave. So no doubt it'll come on the backs that are right in the middle -- those that are too poor to pack up and leave.
Click to expand...

It's all slight of hand magic....I'm sure our government has figured out a way to pay this out without burdening the middle class...I'm sure of it... *puts head back in sand*
 
Dear Conservative Party;
Please put forward a candidate that's not a dope to lead us away from this mess. Hudak had the last election won, all he had to do was stop talking. Send us someone that has a clue. It cant be that hard. Kevin Oleary is not a choice.
 
Just to play devil's advocate a little bit (not saying this program is perfect or even will work at all), this could incentivize certain parts of the population to actually enter the labor force instead of intentionally staying unemployed to collect welfare.

I don't think the cost savings will be nearly enough to offset the increased spending, but the cost savings don't only come from reduced government overhead on welfare-related branches. Theoretically especially in the long run, there could be reduced healthcare spending and legal/police spending as well. People have more money for basic necessities, enjoy improved living standards, and increased education. This leads to better population health and less crime.

Then those factors would/could translate into a better economy, etc.
 
Government overhead and police budgets can go only one way. They think they're teachers. See the problem?
 
I was a refugee many many moons ago, I am willing to bet I probably make more money and pay more taxes than you right now. But Hey feel free to generalize, after all like trump say, they don't send their good people, only rapist and such ;)

sesamestreet said:
Finally the handouts we've all been waiting for.

Just in time too, I'm sure all those refugees are finding an abundance of jobs...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
I'm 100% for this. Maybe not $1500. Maybe more. Shocker, right?

Here's my twist on the idea:
Come up with some number that every "resident" of Canada gets. Have a referendum. All ages. 50%+1 vote will pass it. Index to CPI.
After that, there are absolutely NO other social safety nets and benefits. There's no allowances. There's no welfare. There's no EI. No CPP no OPP, etc. NOTHING.
And if you agitate for more, you are tried for treason. To contest this magical $ number amount that is bestowed on every person legally residing in the dominion is heretoforth un-Canadian and tantamount to treason. And that's it.
We'll never have to talk about it again. Everyone gets it, everyone pays for it.

Take your money and STFU.

OTH, you might see the 100,000 people cut from the bureaucracy like Tim Hudak promised.
 
Universal income model works. Social services in general work. Look at scandinavian countries. highter tax rates but much more encompassing social services which leads to a much higher life index.
Dont listen to what capitalist corporate media tells you. These models have proven to work. Ask anyone who lives in Denmark or Sweden and see how many hours a week they work or how many vacation days they get. Also ask them about the rate of poverty in their countries and youll be (maybe) surprised.
 
I think it's a crime that Canadas' natural resources don't belong to Canadians. That would solve the problem right there. To me it's like if you're on a cruise ship with 3000 people run aground on a deserted island. Right away 10 people commandeer all the coconuts. That's what it is with "our" oil.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom