Ontario Budget

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nobbie48 said:
Dental hygienists make $80 or so an hour. LTC workers make a third of that. Why? Are clean teeth more important than keeping old people alive?
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Dental hygienist, a person pays for half an hour ever six months.
LTC a person pays for 24 x 7, every single day for the rest of their lives.
To have your own LTC worker(s), that's almost $700,000 per year.
How many of us could afford that, and for how long?
 
GreyGhost said:
A lot comes down to the yearly cost per patient and the total cost born by the system. There are arguments that staff should be paid much more and also provide much more time per resident per day. Governments have always had a spending problem. If ltc costs 100k/person/year to do properly with adequately compensated staff, where does that money come from?

Now I'm not saying the current system is great, nor it shouldnt be changed but the financials need to be viable. Some people wont like this thought but a properly functioning MAID system can help the system. And/or dont try so hard to keep them healthy. Keep them comfortable but let their blood pressure drift up some, medicating then to extend their life does not make sense for anybody. So many people in LTC have no quality of life and beg for death but we do whatever we can to keep them alive for decades. If the money from zombies was reallocated to those with quality of life, that makes a big difference. I am not advocating euthanising people without their consent but a form similar to dnr or will where the person can make their wishes known in a legally binding manner while they are mentally sound would help a lot. As it is, even if the patient attempts to implement something similar, as they mentally decline their medical POA often crushes any MAID talk or any discussion that would reduce the life expectancy of their loved one.
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I was doing window deficiencies in a newly opened and occupied LTC facility years ago, adjust a latch, dab of caulk, 15 minutes a room and a brief chat with the resident to pass the time.

One lady bluntly said "I'm in pain every hour of the day. I'd pay someone $500 to put an end to my life." Yeah.

I don't want to die but I would prefer not waking up if it meant diapers and spoon feeding by people I don't recognize.
 
nobbie48 said:
I was doing window deficiencies in a newly opened and occupied LTC facility years ago, adjust a latch, dab of caulk, 15 minutes a room and a brief chat with the resident to pass the time.

One lady bluntly said "I'm in pain every hour of the day. I'd pay someone $500 to put an end to my life." Yeah.

I don't want to die but I would prefer not waking up if it meant diapers and spoon feeding by people I don't recognize.
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Yup, and that is the kind of checklist I would like. If I meet three of criteria a through f or one of g,h,i, it's over. Turn me off within 30 days of determining that improvement is very unlikely.
 
Baggsy said:
Dental hygienist, a person pays for half an hour ever six months.
LTC a person pays for 24 x 7, every single day for the rest of their lives.
To have your own LTC worker(s), that's almost $700,000 per year.
How many of us could afford that, and for how long?
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An ex neighbour near 90 YO was diagnosed with one of those slow slide to death diseases. The decision was made to have a private care giver for him 24/7. IIRC it was about $200 K for six months. While the family wasn't Forest Hill rich they had been practical over the years and could afford it. He was in a good hospice and didn't need an RN, they just didn't want him to need something and not have someone there.

The $700 K you mention would be private RN care 24/7. That is over the top but why focus on the other end of the spectrum, the lowest cost. We tend to do that with family.

A couple goes out for dinner and a show and pays 10 X what the babysitter gets for watching their most valuable resource, their children.

A friend drove a school bus, treated like crap by the people that depended on him for service and by the people paying him. He would have doubled his income if he was delivering beer instead of children.

What are the staff / resident ratios in LTC? Are they reasonable? What is training? How are the homes manipulating part timers?

What is a realistic price tag? Some people freak out at $3,000 a month to care for Granny. That's $100 a day.

A cheap motel and fast food costs that. There seems to a mindset that we shouldn't have to pay for stuff if it's family.

A cousin had a Molly Maid franchise and would get a call from a widower who couldn't keep up with the cleaning etc. When she gave him a price he'd say "But my wife did it for free."
 
nobbie48 said:
An ex neighbour near 90 YO was diagnosed with one of those slow slide to death diseases. The decision was made to have a private care giver for him 24/7. IIRC it was about $200 K for six months. While the family wasn't Forest Hill rich they had been practical over the years and could afford it. He was in a good hospice and didn't need an RN, they just didn't want him to need something and not have someone there.

The $700 K you mention would be private RN care 24/7. That is over the top but why focus on the other end of the spectrum, the lowest cost. We tend to do that with family.

A couple goes out for dinner and a show and pays 10 X what the babysitter gets for watching their most valuable resource, their children.

A friend drove a school bus, treated like crap by the people that depended on him for service and by the people paying him. He would have doubled his income if he was delivering beer instead of children.

What are the staff / resident ratios in LTC? Are they reasonable? What is training? How are the homes manipulating part timers?

What is a realistic price tag? Some people freak out at $3,000 a month to care for Granny. That's $100 a day.

A cheap motel and fast food costs that. There seems to a mindset that we shouldn't have to pay for stuff if it's family.

A cousin had a Molly Maid franchise and would get a call from a widower who couldn't keep up with the cleaning etc. When she gave him a price he'd say "But my wife did it for free."
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Have you paid a babysitter lately? We are normally giving them $100. Higher minimum wage really jacked up the price of babysitters.

It's not remotely $3000 a month. A good retirement home with food, lodging and activities but very little medical care is $5000 a month or more. Add medical care on top of that. How many hours of care should a patient have? Right now they are allotted minutes. If you think two hours a day is reasonable (dressing, feeding, exercise, bathrooms, etc so that seems plausible), that means each resident needs to pick up about 30% of the cost of a PSW (they need some time for paperwork/showering after they get puke or &*^*^ on them). At $80 an hour, that is over $4000 a month. We don't have nurses, doctors, nutritionists, hair cutting, physio etc in there yet. So close to $10K per month per resident for reasonable treatment is likely. A family friend had a solid nest egg and support from family but she had to move into a nursing home after less than 10 years in a retirement home at $60K a year (plus hair plus physio plus plus plus).
 
What will each parties offer to Ontarians to earn your vote? What important to you. Health Care, Education, The Economy, Police/law reform, workes safety/rights etc ?
Or just a change is needed?
 
justride said:
What will each parties offer to Ontarians to earn your vote? What important to you. Health Care, Education, The Economy, Police/law reform, workes safety/rights etc ?
Or just a change is needed?
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Isn't the obvious answer that most will offer all of the above? The first party that runs with "we are raising taxes and cutting services to try to get this *^*^&show under control" has my vote. I doubt they will get elected though.
 
GreyGhost said:
Isn't the obvious answer that most will offer all of the above? The first party that runs with "we are raising taxes and cutting services to try to get this *^*^&show under control" has my vote. I doubt they will get elected though.
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They won’t. Because as a society we can’t look far enough into the future to do what’s best for the next generation. We want ours and let the next generation deal with the fallout.
 
The $700k was just from the math: $80/hour x 24 hours x 365.25 days = $701,280.
That would be if we paid LTC staff the same as you said dental hygienists make.


Politicians are trained by us to lie.
 
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GreyGhost said:
Have you paid a babysitter lately? We are normally giving them $100. Higher minimum wage really jacked up the price of babysitters.

It's not remotely $3000 a month. A good retirement home with food, lodging and activities but very little medical care is $5000 a month or more. Add medical care on top of that. How many hours of care should a patient have? Right now they are allotted minutes. If you think two hours a day is reasonable (dressing, feeding, exercise, bathrooms, etc so that seems plausible), that means each resident needs to pick up about 30% of the cost of a PSW (they need some time for paperwork/showering after they get puke or &*^*^ on them). At $80 an hour, that is over $4000 a month. We don't have nurses, doctors, nutritionists, hair cutting, physio etc in there yet. So close to $10K per month per resident for reasonable treatment is likely. A family friend had a solid nest egg and support from family but she had to move into a nursing home after less than 10 years in a retirement home at $60K a year (plus hair plus physio plus plus plus).
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I got the baby sitting rate off Google @ $16-17 an hour. The home was an out of town from a few years back when my M-I-L was a possible future resident. It was a basic place, a converted bowling alley. They even kept the name "Park Lanes"

I don't know what level of care they had either. Some are OK with old people but not once they become disabled either mentally or physically. The worse they get the more help they need and it isn't fun like playing with babies, puppy dogs or kittens. Kudos to the workers.

It would seem reasonable to have money set aside for a new roof every 20 years, a new car every 10, one of your major appliances every 2-3 years on average. Allot an approximate number so most of the money is there. If things last longer, bonus. If not then it's an adjustment not a disaster.

But somehow there are millions without a clue as to their room and board once they hit their best before date.

We are living longer and that gets more expensive every year through needs and inflation.

Parents often want to leave the estate to the kids instead cashing in the house to pay the LTC bills. One client of mine was upset that the LTC home his not-too-wealthy dad was in had a deal where he could live there as long as he lived even if he could no longer pay the costs. However the home got all his pension income and claim to his property. He got a small monthly allowance. If there was anything left at checkout time only then did it go to the heirs. Is that fair?

I understand that part of acquiring wealth is for dynasty growth. "I scrimped and saved so my kids wouldn't have to" and now the government wants to take it away. Personally IMO if your kids hit 40 they have set their trajectory. If they're good with money they don't need yours. If they're bad with money they'll just waste what you give them. Spend it yourself and leave nothing to fight over.
 
nobbie48 said:
One client of mine was upset that the LTC home his not-too-wealthy dad was in had a deal where he could live there as long as he lived even if he could no longer pay the costs. However the home got all his pension income and claim to his property. He got a small monthly allowance. If there was anything left at checkout time only then did it go to the heirs. Is that fair?
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Pretty sure this is an approved gov't path for nursing homes. The home takes your pension, you get a tiny amount of spending money (maybe $40 month IIRC?), gov't tops up funding required to cover your spot. The alternative path is you keep your income but the gov't doesn't chip in to cover the bill, it's all on you. It's been a while since I had to deal with the intricacies of this. I know my parents were throwing $1500 a month at my grandmas nursing home for a private room. The home got her pension (farmer, not much).
 
GreyGhost said:
Pretty sure this is an approved gov't path for nursing homes. The home takes your pension, you get a tiny amount of spending money (maybe $40 month IIRC?), gov't tops up funding required to cover your spot. The alternative path is you keep your income but the gov't doesn't chip in to cover the bill, it's all on you. It's been a while since I had to deal with the intricacies of this. I know my parents were throwing $1500 a month at my grandmas nursing home for a private room. The home got her pension (farmer, not much).
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Seems like a pretty fair deal my grandmother is paying 6k a month for her room and can afford it so not that big of a deal. If she couldn't the pension and property route would be great.

Sent from my Chesterfield using my thumbs
 
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