New Highway 413 Yea or Nay?

[jdmsteR]

Supporting this highway means lining the pockets of DoFo's corrupt developer buddies and losing important farmland all to save 30 seconds of travel, yeah no thanks.

More pressure should be put on the gov't to acquire the 407 back or at least make it a toll road at a reasonable rate to increase usage and take traffic away from the 401. If it cost 1/4 or less at current rates, not only would their profits at minimum remain the same, it would likely grow due to increased overall usage

 

[GreyGhost]

Supporting this highway means lining the pockets of DoFo's corrupt developer buddies and losing important farmland all to save 30 seconds of travel, yeah no thanks.

More pressure should be put on the gov't to acquire the 407 back or at least make it a toll road at a reasonable rate to increase usage and take traffic away from the 401. If it cost 1/4 or less at current rates, not only would their profits at minimum remain the same, it would likely grow due to increased overall usage

What people aren't understanding is the farmland is already gone. The highway doesn't change that. It just changes whether it is all houses with terrible access or mostly houses and a highway to improve access.

 

[jdmsteR]

What stipulations are in place to assure that this highway doesn't end up being sold off to balance the books like the previous Cons did?
If it was clearly laid out that this would be a provincial highway and not end up being an under utilized and overpriced toll road partially owned by foregin interests, they may get more support.

On the other hand, I would like to see more commercial traffic detoured away from Mayfield as that is one particularly unfavourable stretch of road to travel on

 

[mimico_polak]

Originally I thought this route would be to bypass the city for the Windsor/Montreal trucking corridor. Obviously this isn't the case now that I have looked at the map so I'm torn. I don't think this would have the added benefit originally assumed (by me for one).

I'd like to see something run the length of the city to bypass that truck / vehicular traffic. But that's a pipe dream.

If it becomes a toll road, I'd love/wish/want those funds to find their way to develop transit infrastructure so that we can build a proper system that would meet the needs of the surrounding communities that come into the GTA for work.

 

[GreyGhost]

Originally I thought this route would be to bypass the city for the Windsor/Montreal trucking corridor. Obviously this isn't the case now that I have looked at the map so I'm torn. I don't think this would have the added benefit originally assumed (by me for one).

I'd like to see something run the length of the city to bypass that truck / vehicular traffic. But that's a pipe dream.

If it becomes a toll road, I'd love/wish/want those funds to find their way to develop transit infrastructure so that we can build a proper system that would meet the needs of the surrounding communities that come into the GTA for work.

Transit in the suburbs is a bigger loser than a toll highway. There just isn't the population density to ever make it viable. It's even worse when by design everybody needs one or more personal vehicles. Transit works in the land of towers and everywhere else is a public relations game/low income subsidy. I agree, road tolls should not get combined with general revenue.

 

[mimico_polak]

Well this will probably have a say on it...

Vaughan council yanks its support for the controversial GTA highway in a ‘stunning’ vote

Vaughan joins a growing number of municipalities expressing concern about the environmental impact of the proposed highway.

www.thestar.com

EDIT: @GreyGhost Agreed with you 100%. I live near Erindale GO. My construction site will be in Scarborough...not many options b/w the 2. However, I just checked the GO bus plans and I can get from Square One to Scarborough Station within 1.5hrs...may as well drive. Hence the electric vehicle consideration.

 

[GreyGhost]

Well this will probably have a say on it...

Vaughan council yanks its support for the controversial GTA highway in a ‘stunning’ vote

Vaughan joins a growing number of municipalities expressing concern about the environmental impact of the proposed highway.

www.thestar.com

No it won't. The province has been doing many things since last march that are actively opposed by local government/citizens. If they get the contracts signed during the pandemic, it's all over but the crying. I know at least some of the municipalities along the route have been assuming (or know?) that it is coming for many months.

 

[nobbie48]

No it won't. The province has been doing many things since last march that are actively opposed by local government/citizens. If they get the contracts signed during the pandemic, it's all over but the crying. I know at least some of the municipalities along the route have been assuming (or know?) that it is coming for many months.

Canada: Hewers of wood and haulers of water and builders of housing for hewers of wood and haulers of water. Something has got to give.

 

[GreyGhost]

Canada: Hewers of wood and haulers water and builders of housing for hewers of wood and haulers water. Something has got to give.

Our economy has become a little bit of tech and whole lot of housing. You think covid screwed up the economy, throw out the anchor on housing and the last year would look like a ripple (and existing house prices would continue to climb to the moon).

 

[nobbie48]

Supporting this highway means lining the pockets of DoFo's corrupt developer buddies and losing important farmland all to save 30 seconds of travel, yeah no thanks.

More pressure should be put on the gov't to acquire the 407 back or at least make it a toll road at a reasonable rate to increase usage and take traffic away from the 401. If it cost 1/4 or less at current rates, not only would their profits at minimum remain the same, it would likely grow due to increased overall usage

Paragraph 1) I agree in principle except just about all the farmland south of Barrie, maybe beyond has been sold and leased back to the farmer or the developer has a first right to buy.

Paragraph 2) If the cost per Km is reduced, the usage will increase and the traffic slows. When traffic slows beyond a certain point drivers will skip the toll road and go freeway. At some point the road will reach a sweet spot. I recall when it opened and was free for a short time, maybe a few weeks or so. It was quite busy and then they started charging and it was a ghost highway until people sucked up the inevitable.

 

[GreyGhost]

Paragraph 2) If the cost per Km is reduced, the usage will increase and the traffic slows. When traffic slows beyond a certain point drivers will skip the toll road and go freeway. At some point the road will reach a sweet spot. I recall when it opened and was free for a short time, maybe a few weeks or so. It was quite busy and then they started charging and it was a ghost highway until people sucked up the inevitable.

Imo, it well overshot the "sweet spot" if you want it to carry reasonable volume at reasonable speed. It has become the opposite of public transit, a transportation corridor almost exclusively used by the upper class. Now, if it was my highway, minimizing traffic minimizes wear and issues and makes people happy that they are paying for a great experience so maybe they have maximized net revenue not gross revenue and who cares if the 401 is plugged solid.

 

[backmarkerducati]

Paragraph 1) I agree in principle except just about all the farmland south of Barrie, maybe beyond has been sold and leased back to the farmer or the developer has a first right to buy.

Paragraph 2) If the cost per Km is reduced, the usage will increase and the traffic slows. When traffic slows beyond a certain point drivers will skip the toll road and go freeway. At some point the road will reach a sweet spot. I recall when it opened and was free for a short time, maybe a few weeks or so. It was quite busy and then they started charging and it was a ghost highway until people sucked up the inevitable.

It was free longer than expected when it opened as there were problems with the tolling technology. During this period the congestion on the 401 was much, much lower than it was before the 407 opened. The traffic on the 407 was obviously higher when it was free than after the tolls. The point, it was the right capacity at the right time when it opened. Once the tolls were finally activated on the 407 the 401 went back to being a total mess and of course the 407 was a relative ghost town--little was accomplished for the average commuter or trucker.

I believe there is a lot of developer lobbying (how big are the kick backs if any is anyone's guess) as the 413 will increase the value of any future project in this area. This includes any farm land deals in the works.

 

[nobbie48]

Transit in the suburbs is a bigger loser than a toll highway. There just isn't the population density to ever make it viable. It's even worse when by design everybody needs one or more personal vehicles. Transit works in the land of towers and everywhere else is a public relations game/low income subsidy. I agree, road tolls should not get combined with general revenue.

Is part of the problem the scattered small developments that are hard to link?

If they built new villages it would be easier to build transit systems. I've never been to England and wonder what their model is with extreme house prices in London, expensive car fuels, private vehicle discouragement in the city. I am under the impression they didn't let their railways go to pot either.

Mass transit with wifi (Work En Route) would beat the drive from 100 km out...........until a pandemic comes along and everyone needs their own space.

Totally new villages would be ticky tacky and massive enlargement of an existing one would raise the ire of the locals.

Stop the world. I want to get off.

 

[ToSlow]

The 407 is a waste, Great that it's there but sad it's not capitalized on and move traffic to capacity

 

[nobbie48]

Imo, it well overshot the "sweet spot" if you want it to carry reasonable volume at reasonable speed. It has become the opposite of public transit, a transportation corridor almost exclusively used by the upper class. Now, if it was my highway, minimizing traffic minimizes wear and issues and makes people happy that they are paying for a great experience so maybe they have maximized net revenue not gross revenue and who cares if the 401 is plugged solid.

1) The last I heard, a company transponder logging the trips was considered business travel and personal travel was incidental. It may have changed.

2) Technically, one doesn't get paid to drive to work.

A lot of personal travel is being company subsidized. If that changed and the $200 - $300 a week became a $10,000 yearly taxable benefit at 30+% how would the upper class handle that?

And yeah, who at the 407 cares if the competing highway (401) is jammed. "We apologize for the delay. Please take a number, or for better service, write a convenient number on a fifty dollar bill and wave it around. Do I see a number on a hundred dollar bill?" Corporations exist to make the most profit for the shareholders.

The sweet spot to me would be all lanes travelling at 90% of the limit. Faster than that and there's room for more cars. Slower than that and it isn't an expressway.

 

[GreyGhost]

Is part of the problem the scattered small developments that are hard to link?

If they built new villages it would be easier to build transit systems. I've never been to England and wonder what their model is with extreme house prices in London, expensive car fuels, private vehicle discouragement in the city. I am under the impression they didn't let their railways go to pot either.

Mass transit with wifi (Work En Route) would beat the drive from 100 km out...........until a pandemic comes along and everyone needs their own space.

Totally new villages would be ticky tacky and massive enlargement of an existing one would raise the ire of the locals.

Stop the world. I want to get off.

It's the style of housing we want (and most expect) in canada that is the problem. Single family homes every 30 to 100' means you need to walk a long way to a transit stop (or have really slow transit times with a ton of vehicles making lots of stops). If your personal car can get you to work in 45 minutes and transit costs not much less and takes two or three times as long, what sane person would take transit? You either need to dramatically speed up transit (not really possible from the suburbs) or make the vehicles too expensive to use to force people onto transit. Towers concentrate the riders so they can have a stop nearby where many people get on instead of stops with one or two riders far apart.

 

[Scuba Steve]

It would be cheaper and accomplished the same thing for the province to pay the tolls for truck traffic on the 407. But would be political suicide.

Sent from my couch using my thumbs

 

[GreyGhost]

It would be cheaper and accomplished the same thing for the province to pay the tolls for truck traffic on the 407. But would be political suicide.

Sent from my couch using my thumbs

And once it became "not my money", that $140 truck charge would quickly escalate to the moon.

 

[nobbie48]

It's the style of housing we want (and most expect) in canada that is the problem. Single family homes every 30 to 100' means you need to walk a long way to a transit stop (or have really slow transit times with a ton of vehicles making lots of stops). If your personal car can get you to work in 45 minutes and transit costs not much less and takes two or three times as long, what sane person would take transit? You either need to dramatically speed up transit (not really possible from the suburbs) or make the vehicles too expensive to use to force people onto transit. Towers concentrate the riders so they can have a stop nearby where many people get on instead of stops with one or two riders far apart.

Right now from city hall to my place at Bloor / 427 is 19 minutes by car and 51 by TTC. At 50 cents a Km the car cost would be about $10.00 and the TTC, $3.25. Pay six-seventy-five to save 32 minutes = $12.65 per hour. Bicycle is 65 minutes so the TTC is the better way by 14 minutes. Pay $3.25 to save 14 minutes or $14 an hour. The time saved could theoretically be used to earn income.

The numbers, particularly for the car, would be greatly altered by parking costs unless you were just dropping something off by throwing it out the window or equal.

The sweet spot also enters the TTC calculations. More stops encourage more riders because they don't have to walk as far but then the crowd factor cuts in and the added stops slow the trip. Moving sidewalks anyone?

 

[GreyGhost]

Right now from city hall to my place at Bloor / 427 is 19 minutes by car and 51 by TTC. At 50 cents a Km the car cost would be about $10.00 and the TTC, $3.25. Pay six-seventy-five to save 32 minutes = $12.65 per hour. Bicycle is 65 minutes so the TTC is the better way by 14 minutes. Pay $3.25 to save 14 minutes or $14 an hour. The time saved could theoretically be used to earn income.

The numbers, particularly for the car, would be greatly altered by parking costs unless you were just dropping something off by throwing it out the window or equal.

The sweet spot also enters the TTC calculations. More stops encourage more riders because they don't have to walk as far but then the crowd factor cuts in and the added stops slow the trip. Moving sidewalks anyone?

Toronto proper has a chance for viable transit. Suburbs dont stand a chance. When most of your land is housing and there are relatively few jobs and those that do exist are spread out and/or in industrial wasteland, it just doesnt work.