My 2nd TD and 1st ever crash | Page 4 | GTAMotorcycle.com

My 2nd TD and 1st ever crash

If the rear is stiff, why have you not softened it?

Have you bothered to do a proper sag setup??

If you haven't, you're wasting your time trying to learn anything as you're riding on a bike that isn't going to work, no matter how hard you try.
 
reciprocity said:
If the rear is stiff, why have you not softened it?

Have you bothered to do a proper sag setup??

If you haven't, you're wasting your time trying to learn anything as you're riding on a bike that isn't going to work, no matter how hard you try.
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It wasn't done previously because there are no suspension people in Newfoundland, and I have no idea what I'm doing to attempt it myself. I moved back here last September... the land of tracks and shops and expert bike people. The wonky suspension had never been a huge issue because I'm a pretty relaxed and overly cautious rider on the street. The issues only really became apparent when I started riding on the track. Then the issues suddenly became very much in my face.

It goes in this week to be set up. :)
 
The advice you got in ARC1 to get off the brakes before the corner was "stay out of trouble" instruction for beginners, who are assumed to be going relatively slow out there. Once you progress beyond a certain point then (A) you have to push the braking closer to the corner, otherwise you're going to get passed on corner entry and (B) you have to start riding in a way that allows the suspension to work properly.

I already explained why the forks have to compress during braking and have to compress during cornering. If you brake, and then stop braking, and then turn in, and then turn, the forks compress, then uncompress, then compress again. If the transition from braking to turn in is one smooth blended action then the forks stay compressed and the geometry of the bike stays more consistent and the front tire contact patch remains loaded the whole time. No one is saying that you have to stay HARD on the brakes past your turn-in point - that WILL make you crash. Just smoothly roll off braking as you turn in simultaneously.

BusaBob pointed out your previous thread in which you complained about suspension issues. You need to get that sorted. Brad Clarke (Brampton Powersports), Ryan Gill (Condor Racing - if you can find him), Jeff Bloor (now at Rider's Choice), Sandy Noce (Pro 6 Cycle), John Sharrard (Accelerated Technologies) can ALL help in this regard.
 
So much advice.

IMO, the order of skills you should focus on should be:

1) learn the lines
2) learn to be smooth (much more than just suspension setup - it's how smoothly you get on and off the throttle, brakes and clutch)
3) work on body positioning (much more than just getting your butt off the seat. Where is your upper body? It is counter-productive to swivel or rotate around the tank and be all crossed up on the bike, kissing the wrong mirror. I would argue upper body placement is equally important if not more important than lower body placement in minimizing lean angle)
4) trail-braking (not sure from your comments if you know what trail-braking is. It's staying on the front brake and keeping the forks compressed while you're initiating your turn, and slowly and smoothly letting the front brake go as you approach the apex. BrainP has an excellent write-up on this, but not something I'd recommend to someone just starting out on track)

No amount of good body-positioning is going to save bad lines on the track or unsettling the bike while leaned over. Unfortunately, it is the one skill that most riders focus on to the detriment of more important skills, and too many focus on getting that knee out and down instead of the real reason for hanging off - which is minimizing lean/maximizing contact patch and putting weight on top of the bike, not pushing the wheels out from underneath them.
 
Lightcycle said:
So much advice.

IMO, the order of skills you should focus on should be:

1) learn the lines
2) learn to be smooth (much more than just suspension setup - it's how smoothly you get on and off the throttle, brakes and clutch)
3) work on body positioning (much more than just getting your butt off the seat. Where is your upper body? It is counter-productive to swivel or rotate around the tank and be all crossed up on the bike, kissing the wrong mirror. I would argue upper body placement is equally important if not more important than lower body placement in minimizing lean angle)
4) trail-braking (not sure from your comments if you know what trail-braking is. It's staying on the front brake and keeping the forks compressed while you're initiating your turn, and slowly and smoothly letting the front brake go as you approach the apex. BrainP has an excellent write-up on this, but not something I'd recommend to someone just starting out on track)
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Seems like the right way to do things. I ended up doing it a little backwards and made it harder for myself.

I focused on smoothness first, and then BP.
But that's where I ran into trouble.
My lines were very wrong in the LH turns, and I was slowing way down before them. When I tried to hang off, it would make the bike turn too sharp, and I'd have to correct with steering inputs.

At my last TD, I worked on the lines and carrying more speed in the LH bends, and now when I hang off in the lefts, it all works out.

I now have to focus on being smooth again. My transitions from left to right are rough, and i'm putting unwanted inputs into the bars.
I also have to focus on gripping the tank with my knees under braking.

Oh, and getting the proper lines through the bumpy corners at TMP is on my list as well.

More important then trail braking at the beginner level I think is keeping the throttle closed until (roughly) the apex. The engine braking does enough to load the front end. When the speed picks up, yes trail-braking will help keep the front settled. But for now (at least for me) it's just one more thing to think about that's not critical (at this point).
 
Good Gawd. I had no idea learning all this stuff was going to be so difficult and complex! This reminds me of when I took up learning to play the alto saxophone. My first teacher was a Jazz tripler. My second was a Classical master. I had to unlearn all the incorrect methods I had learned from the first teacher. Ugh! Doing that is about a million times more difficult than just learning the correct methods right off the bad. Ok, that was my only good comparison to this!

IDK why I thought trail braking referred to staying on the rear brake, not the front. I don't think I would be comfortable at this point learning how to do that at the track when I feel I have more basic things I need to learn and be comfortable with first.
 
stormcat said:
I don't think I would be comfortable at this point learning how to do that at the track when I feel I have more basic things I need to learn and be comfortable with first.
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Focus on one new thing at a time. It's overwhelming if you are thinking about too many things while on the track.
 
I may be wrong on this and get politely corrected but when I did my first couple of td's (still only done a few) I was getting all my breaking done well before the corner and trying to actually be on the gas through the whole corner. Not WOT but just enough to keep the bike moving. I find on some bikes the on/off throttle isn't smooth and could cause a sudden jerk foreward which isn't good when your leaned over. Now t6 at cayuge it isn't a great place to do this so I would just coast through off the throttle till I started to upright the bike and roll on smoothly till you become more confident. Being on the gas was good in bigger sweeping corners and it helped me to learn how late I could break into the corner and where I could really start to get on the gas as I started getting on the throttle sooner. Having faith in your tires is HUGE! I've only ridden on Dunlop gp/gpa's but my bike is track only. Get some good rubber on there and that will really help you. Having a worn front tire is more dangerous IMHO than a rear. Take your time and learn one thing at a time. Also IMO, the track is the first thing to learn, then start figuring out how to get around it.
 
dricked said:
I may be wrong on this and get politely corrected but when I did my first couple of td's (still only done a few) I was getting all my breaking done well before the corner and trying to actually be on the gas through the whole corner.
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getting all the braking done early is the safe way to do it, not the fast way.
 
murf said:
getting all the braking done early is the safe way to do it, not the fast way.
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turning in with the back wheel off the ground is the fun way to do it
 
Just an update to this and the suspension saga:

Took the bike down to be seen by Ryan at Condor Racing. It actually needed very little adjustment. The springs are 4mil too soft, apparently, but balanced between front and rear. He upped the damping though, and found that the guy who redid my forks last had left them uneven in height. But not so badly that I would have really noticed.

He checked my front tire tread and also thinks it's fine. All in all, he thinks the bike is set up fine for street and novice level track days without any further adjustment. That makes me feel better.

Lastly, I described the crash to him and he echoed my theory. I had the front completely loaded from hard braking and wasn't on the gas in time as I leaned in. The rear went light and whooooosh! out it went. Live and learn.
 
stormcat said:
Just an update to this and the suspension saga:

Took the bike down to be seen by Ryan at Condor Racing. It actually needed very little adjustment....
Lastly, I described the crash to him and he echoed my theory. I had the front completely loaded from hard braking and wasn't on the gas in time as I leaned in. The rear went light and whooooosh! out it went. Live and learn.
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then what was causing the feeling that "the rear suspension on my bike ('05 CBR600RR) is totally whacked. It seems too hard so when I hit a bump, it knocks me into the tank pretty bad"

did he up your rebound or compression damping?

just curious. thanks for the updates.
 
I couldn't tell you which. On the ride home from Hamilton to Brampton it was slightly better but regardless of how much I grip the tank (and I have Tech Spec on it too), any biggish bumps still knock my butt off the seat.
 
There are some nasty bumps out there that will upset any suspension. I got sacked on the way home... No joke.
 
stormcat said:
Just an update to this and the suspension saga:

Took the bike down to be seen by Ryan at Condor Racing. It actually needed very little adjustment. The springs are 4mil too soft, apparently, but balanced between front and rear. He upped the damping though, and found that the guy who redid my forks last had left them uneven in height. But not so badly that I would have really noticed.

He checked my front tire tread and also thinks it's fine. All in all, he thinks the bike is set up fine for street and novice level track days without any further adjustment. That makes me feel better.

Lastly, I described the crash to him and he echoed my theory. I had the front completely loaded from hard braking and wasn't on the gas in time as I leaned in. The rear went light and whooooosh! out it went. Live and learn.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear you got the suspension sorted out. Fairly easily too. Nice! BTW, did you take that baffle back out of the exhaust? I don't remember if you posted whether or not it passed tech inspection or if you needed to tinker some more with it at the track.
 
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