Min wage increase

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Roadghost said:
This is only partially true. Only some McDonald's are franchised. Franchisees pay a large percentage of their profit to the corp., they are almost employees, barely business owners. McDonald's corporate head office is in the United States. It is listed on the NY stock exchange. The U.S. is where the profits go. Although there are some benefits, foreign fast food companies are of little overall value to our economy. Canadian owned food giant Cara (Harveys, Kelseys, Montanas, etc.) is a good example of a chain that does add value to our economy.



So who did we have before Wal-Mart? They aren't doing anything any other retailer couldn't. Zellers, once a profitable company, bought and destroyed by foreign corp. Target, was also a big employer with higher paying jobs and better benefits. How did Wal-Mart change the landscape and become beneficial? We don't need any more trucking jobs there's already a shortage of drivers in that industry and Wal-Mart doesn't hire them they contract at horrible pay rates. Besides bringing in a lot of Chinese product and overcharging for it I don't see any benefit from them either. Speaking of no benefits, let's talk about Amazon and eBay, who also contribute nothing to the Canadian economy and will surely be Wal-Mart's demise. The idea that these foreign retailers or fast food corps. are a better benefit to Canada than Canadian ones is a fantasy. On paper, your argument just doesn't hold water. One way to get more money out of them is to raise the minimum wage. I promise you they won't leave because of it, ever.
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Walmart deals with 7500 Canadian suppliers at more than $20B per year.

Just stop posting. You obviously don't understand economics. If a Canadian business could compete, they'd already be doing it.
 
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mmmnaked said:
The minimum wage is high enough that some companies are automating those workers out. All that tells me is that those minimum wage workers are indeed worth LESS than what they're being paid, and the quality of their work is garbage.

Sometimes reality sucks. Work harder, do a better job.
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Forum definitely needs a like button
 
JTR said:
What baffles me, is when I see unions get behind this.. Like hey dumbass, YOUR wage is frozen in a contract. IF you get a raise in your next contract it will be pennies per hour and will be frozen for another 4 years, and you may have to lose thousands of dollars and possibly your home and family, striking just to get it. All while the cost of anything that a min wage worker touches, will increase drastically.

Anybody who argues against that last point obviously isn't old enough to remember the results of the last minimum wage raising spree, or just blind to it. Minimum wage has increased by 66.5% overall since I entered the workforce. If you want to know if that fixed the economy, look around you. A loaf of bread in that same time has increased by almost 300%. Some of that is obviously due to fuel and energy costs, but also largely labor.

As a unionized skilled laborer, I have busted my ***, and sacrificed, as did greatly my brothers who came before me. Simply to achieve my modest wage, that which does not really do much in today's economy. And I take great offense when people who don't have the ambition to do anything with their lives, demand to have everything handed to them. Go out and make something of your damn life, and make room in those entry level jobs for the kids who are supposed to occupy them!
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unions can use it as a bargaining tool down the road when negotiating contracts.
 
Roadghost said:
This is only partially true. Only some McDonald's are franchised. Franchisees pay a large percentage of their profit to the corp., they are almost employees, barely business owners.
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So what you're saying, is that if the above is true, McFranchisees are as dumb as a box of rocks financially, and spend million of dollars to buy into what is essentially nothing but a store manager position? And at the same time, you're also giving your nod of agreement that the franchisee's margin is so tight that they definitely can not afford a higher minimum wage.



Roadghost said:
So who did we have before Wal-Mart? They aren't doing anything any other retailer couldn't. Zellers, once a profitable company, bought and destroyed by foreign corp. Target, was also a big employer with higher paying jobs and better benefits. How did Wal-Mart change the landscape and become beneficial? We don't need any more trucking jobs there's already a shortage of drivers in that industry and Wal-Mart doesn't hire them they contract at horrible pay rates. Besides bringing in a lot of Chinese product and overcharging for it I don't see any benefit from them either. Speaking of no benefits, let's talk about Amazon and eBay, who also contribute nothing to the Canadian economy and will surely be Wal-Mart's demise. The idea that these foreign retailers or fast food corps. are a better benefit to Canada than Canadian ones is a fantasy. On paper, your argument just doesn't hold water. One way to get more money out of them is to raise the minimum wage. I promise you they won't leave because of it, ever.
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Yeah Zellers definitely didn't overcharge for cheap chinese product... Oh Wait! Zellers had cheaper crappier Chinese product AND they charged more than Walmart for it, might have something to do wit why Zellers was in the tank LONG before target bought them out. Oh and they also paid minimum wage. You're not doing too good here.
 
Guys, Zellers was not "bought out" by Target. Zellers chain went out of business (shut down) and Target took over some (many) of the Zellers leases/lease locations. Zellers is still owned by The Bay and there is still a location on The Queensway that is a Bay outlet.

As for head office location... Walmart Canada and McDonalds Canada are both Canadian companies that are owned by a US parent company. The question is how much cash goes back to the US from these subsidies or do they just keep the money in Canada. Remember US (35 to 40%, depends on state) corp taxes are much higher than Canada (~28% Fed + Prov in Ontario for example). So there is motivation to not just send the money back to head office for it to be taxed again (US and Canada have a tax treaty), sending the money back home means you pay taxes on it again (the delta). So in many cases the money just ends up sitting in the foreign companies accounts or used for expansion there. We do not know in these two cases, but being publicly traded maybe we can find out with some significant effort. What we do know is they do employ a lot of people here.

In comparison, the BK parent company buyout of Tim Hortons was considered a reverse buy out because they wanted to make Canada the "official" head office due to the lower taxes... That way any profits from higher tax countries (with a treaty) can be funnelled back home with no extra taxes.

All in all, this is not simple stuff. We have not even touched on dividend tax rates etc.
 
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Zellers were the first people using Z in place of S which, as we all know, became all the rage with the common use of the internetz. Not sure if Z was ever intended as an off target gender pronoun or the precursor to ZZ Tops.
 
mmmnaked said:
The minimum wage is high enough that some companies are automating those workers out. All that tells me is that those minimum wage workers are indeed worth LESS than what they're being paid, and the quality of their work is garbage.

Sometimes reality sucks. Work harder, do a better job.
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Nope, they are automating cause it's more profitable even at less than they are getting now. And it doesn't only apply to low end jobs. Higher end jobs are also suffering from automation.
 
Riceburner said:
Nope, they are automating cause it's more profitable even at less than they are getting now. And it doesn't only apply to low end jobs. Higher end jobs are also suffering from automation.
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Just to add to that, for a company to spend money on anything new they need to have a reasonable ROI (return on investment). Basic business economics, and that is usually no more than a 4 to 5 year ROI. This goes for automation as well, if they will break even in four years or less they will do it. So it does matter what the costs are without it and it applies to higher and lower paying jobs. If that point at the current min wage is 2 years, raising it will just make it shorter.

They are not going to do it just for fun and lose a tonne of money (although that may be the outcome, it was not the plan).
 
Riceburner said:
Nope, they are automating cause it's more profitable even at less than they are getting now. And it doesn't only apply to low end jobs. Higher end jobs are also suffering from automation.
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....which means automation is the cheaper route, which means the labour is too expensive. You didn't counter my argument you reinforced it.

It's not convenient or comforting, but it's the truth.
 
automation possibly applies more to skilled labour than kiosk at McD's. Robotic welders never get sick days and even on snow days they are there when the bell rings. CNC profiling machines need a skilled programmer, but he can program 3 or 4 machine centers. The mold maker that gets replaced was probably more that a $13.50 guy.

I'd argue the minimum wage should be close to a living wage, because if we don't offer that, then the marginalized folks that fro whatever reason aren't going to be able to land a better paying gig, dont choose to stay home and collect social assistance, because then instead of me possibly paying more for a coffee or a car wash, I'm paying the full brunt of their rent and food. We have an awesome social security net here in Ontario and I pay for it one way or another.
 
crankcall said:
automation possibly applies more to skilled labour than kiosk at McD's. Robotic welders never get sick days and even on snow days they are there when the bell rings. CNC profiling machines need a skilled programmer, but he can program 3 or 4 machine centers. The mold maker that gets replaced was probably more that a $13.50 guy.

I'd argue the minimum wage should be close to a living wage, because if we don't offer that, then the marginalized folks that fro whatever reason aren't going to be able to land a better paying gig, dont choose to stay home and collect social assistance, because then instead of me possibly paying more for a coffee or a car wash, I'm paying the full brunt of their rent and food. We have an awesome social security net here in Ontario and I pay for it one way or another.
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Raise minimum wage and you raise unemployment. You'll still be paying social assistance, possibly even more now to cover the newly unemployed.
 
An able bodied male finished high school that doesn't act like an ******* would likely have trouble getting his pay down to minimum wage. I think we're talking about disabled females. Don't disabled females deserve a living wage? Sorry I forgot about ********. Don't ******** deserve a living wage?
 
People DESERVE exactly what they are willing to work for, no more, no less.
 
inreb said:
I just thought of something. There should be a maximum wage for public sector employees. That would help level field. This bs about paying top $ to get the best and brightest should be tested. Ever see a government worker in action? Not exactly pushing the envelope.
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Where do I sign up? I would love that sort of a cap ... just to watch, some of the government officials scream, how they are not in it for money, but rather for a public service.
 
If you haven't had that special little talk with the Union Rep. then chances are you aren't working your three stars off.

Before, showing my ignorance on the minimum wage front, I'd like to get to know some people that it might benefit, some that it might destroy, and get a good discussion on it's drawbacks and benefits.

I know some people that work two or even three jobs to get by, so not everyone is in the same relative boat. But, I'm pretty sure that they're making more than minimum wage.

I've seen the results of some global outsourcing first hand, and it wasn't pretty. We seemed to be training people in another Country to do our jobs, and as soon as they had a little experience, they'd leave for better pay, and we'd start training someone new, ad infinitum. Deliveries were poor quality, and late, standards weren't maintained, and I don't think it was less expensive. Then again maybe I just sucked at managing these people in the five minutes a day that I was allotted. The idea was that they'd do the monotonous and labour intensive, boring stuff, leaving us the gravy work, but the only way that a contract could be written seemed to make it happen the other way around.

Some of the existing paradigms seem to punish people for their success.
 
Not me. I deserve more. But the rest of you should pay.
 
Well I declare that a full time job should cover at least basic food, clothing and shelter to survive. The economy needs to be jigged for that or we don't live in a just society. Maybe get the SJWs off of the usual projects and on to something more pragmatic.
 
inreb said:
Well I declare that a full time job should cover at least basic food, clothing and shelter to survive. The economy needs to be jigged for that or we don't live in a just society. Maybe get the SJWs off of the usual projects and on to something more pragmatic.
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And economics declares that such a move leads to higher unemployment. Low pay? Or no pay? Not sure it's so pragmatic after all.
 
Baggsy said:
Before, showing my ignorance on the minimum wage front, I'd like to get to know some people that it might benefit, some that it might destroy, and get a good discussion on it's drawbacks and benefits.
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Won't speak for min wage workers of today, but I was once a min wage worker, and experienced a modest government induced increase. The cliche "min wage goes up, so does everything else" was my experience. I don't recall being any better off... Hard work, and developing a skill set in demand is why I'm better off.. Or maybe it's my privilege. lol
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