Managing amateur track day risk | Page 9 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Managing amateur track day risk

dricked said:
My goal from day two was to be faster/smoother than on day one. Some people just want to be better and some are content with where they are. Personally I don't know how you couldn't want to progress on the track but not everyone is the same. Red group is the goal and I can't wait.....also not chewing through tires is my other goal but that's mostly so the book keeper doesn't give me crap all the way home.
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Read my post again. There's a difference between improving your riding, and having an artificial goal of moving into a certain group.

Again, I know my opinion will be in the minority. I don't subscribe to the "crashing is inevitable" school of thought. I didn't use that thinking when I learned to ride on the road, I don't see why I have to use it when learning to ride on the track.
 
I wasn't attacking your post. To me improving on the track is going faster and being smoother IMHO. If your content with green/yellow then so be it and take whatever you get from it and enjoy it, it's a track day, not a race.
 
I don't see why bringing up Pro 6's name into this makes a difference, we all know what a great show these guys put on. Would be my preferred track day organizer of choice hands down, the two recent accidents are just example of some rotten luck. I feel so sorry for the gang at Pro6 and the families and friends of the riders involved.

Bottom line, riding a motorbike whether on the street/dirt/track comes with a certain amount of risks involved, i still feel safer at a trackday than sitting on one of those rides at Canada's Wonderland.

Managing track days risk? **** can happen.
 
Englishj said:
I don't see why bringing up Pro 6's name into this makes a difference, we all know what a great show these guys put on. Would be my preferred track day organizer of choice hands down, the two recent accidents are just example of some rotten luck. I feel so sorry for the gang at Pro6 and the families and friends of the riders involved.

Bottom line, riding a motorbike whether on the street/dirt/track comes with a certain amount of risks involved, i still feel safer at a trackday than sitting on one of those rides at Canada's Wonderland.

Managing track days risk? **** can happen.
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I'm booking a day at Mosport and a 2 dayer at 'bogie with Pro 6. What has happened can happen. Irrespective of whose name is on the door.
 
I've got upcoming days booked with Pro6. Of all the organizers, they're the last I would think of this happening to. I've never seen much hooliganism or bad riding at any of their days. Can't say that for every organizer.
 
Duster929 said:
I've got upcoming days booked with Pro6. Of all the organizers, they're the last I would think of this happening to. I've never seen much hooliganism or bad riding at any of their days. Can't say that for every organizer.
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These things can happen at ANY trackday.

Hooliganism has NOTHING to do with it, crashes happen.
 
My apologies for the implication that these particular crashes had to do with hooliganism. That wasn't the intent of my post, but in reading it now I can see how it might read that way. I was only trying to say that Pro6 run excellent days with good riders. I've been with other organizers where I feel like "this is an accident waiting to happen", and Pro6 isn't like that.

For the record, I don't know anything about either crash, so I wasn't trying to apply the word "hooliganism" to either of these events specifically.
 
I think there still is a lot of discomfort among many people about discussing the causes of accidents that result in fatalities, whether on the road or the track. Clearly, respect for those who passed away must be paramount, and it is all too easy to accidentally make a comment that causes offense, particularly if someone on the thread personally knew the fallen rider. We candidly discuss rider errors when someone posts about their crash, but isn't killed, by pointing out what they could have done differently to avoid the crash. I certainly have learned a lot from those threads, and they serve as constant reminders to me that it is ultimately my responsibility to avoid all the idiot drivers and other hazards on the road. However, when someone dies, they aren't there to explain what happened and present their side of the story. There also are aggrieved family and friends who may not be ready for others to openly discuss the tragedy. Having said all that, I think there should be a time, place and manner that we can discuss and learn from these horrible accidents. I acknowledge that in almost all cases, these truly are "accidents" and, as we all accept, **** happens from time to time. But we still can learn from it. It's been 30 years since the Hurt Report came out - a piece of research that remains the touchstone for rider awareness and road safety. We should be able to add to that body of knowledge through thoughtful and respectful discussion. A starting point would be to acknowledge that, no matter how obvious events may appear in hindsight, no rider ever wants to crash and therefore shouldn't be labelled or blamed. Another important point is that discussion would need to be based solely on facts, not speculation (an offense of which I myself was guilty). This type of clinical approach likely is what makes us more comfortable with how the NTSB reports on plane crashes, and why a research project like the Hurt Report isn't morally offensive. If one day I become a rider statistic, I hope that I can at least be an instructive one for others.
 
After my first time on the track all I can give as advice to anyone is,
1) do not worry about anything, the moment your focus is shifted from riding, you mess up
2) learn how to ride off the track, stand the bike up and never ever hit the front brake. Obviously this is a little hard if you hit the grass at 100mph though..

Again I cant stress enough to not worry about this or that happening. If you're scared you need to take a step back to a level where you're comfortable. I know many people are afraid of passing others, and granted it can be a little unnerving since you do not know exactly what the person you're passing is going to do.. I just keep my focus on my lines and the bike and go around without even thinking about it.

Your brain has too much going on with coodinating both hands and feet as well as your body positioning and the lines you're trying to follow for it to fit in any form of fear or uncertainty.

Im a pretty big noob, but I think these are some guidelines everyone should follow.

Deaths don't deter me, I cant wait to get out at mosport for the csbk weekend in a few weeks :)
 
Geeser said:
I think there still is a lot of discomfort among many people about discussing the causes of accidents that result in fatalities, whether on the road or the track. Clearly, respect for those who passed away must be paramount, and it is all too easy to accidentally make a comment that causes offense, particularly if someone on the thread personally knew the fallen rider. We candidly discuss rider errors when someone posts about their crash, but isn't killed, by pointing out what they could have done differently to avoid the crash. I certainly have learned a lot from those threads, and they serve as constant reminders to me that it is ultimately my responsibility to avoid all the idiot drivers and other hazards on the road. However, when someone dies, they aren't there to explain what happened and present their side of the story. There also are aggrieved family and friends who may not be ready for others to openly discuss the tragedy. Having said all that, I think there should be a time, place and manner that we can discuss and learn from these horrible accidents. I acknowledge that in almost all cases, these truly are "accidents" and, as we all accept, **** happens from time to time. But we still can learn from it. It's been 30 years since the Hurt Report came out - a piece of research that remains the touchstone for rider awareness and road safety. We should be able to add to that body of knowledge through thoughtful and respectful discussion. A starting point would be to acknowledge that, no matter how obvious events may appear in hindsight, no rider ever wants to crash and therefore shouldn't be labelled or blamed. Another important point is that discussion would need to be based solely on facts, not speculation (an offense of which I myself was guilty). This type of clinical approach likely is what makes us more comfortable with how the NTSB reports on plane crashes, and why a research project like the Hurt Report isn't morally offensive. If one day I become a rider statistic, I hope that I can at least be an instructive one for others.
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+1. As a private pilot, I spent a lot of time during training, and subsequently, reading about and analyzing incidents and crashes. It's taken as a given in the flying community that an important part of avoiding an incident is to study existing incidents. The NTSB publishes their results, and it's available on the internet and in magazines. Their results are the product of a proper investigation, and they report only the facts, with no speculation. Many of these accidents are fatalities with no survivors, so they have to make a ruling based on the evidence. 90% of the time they rule that it's "pilot error", and then they list "contributing factors", like the weather, or a mechanical issue.

The theory that flight safety is based on, is that although statistically, incidents will almost certainly happen, at the same time every incident is avoidable. These two things might seem like a contradiction, but they are not. Every incident is the product of a series of events that lead up to the conclusion, and that conclusion could have been averted if the chain of events was broken at any point along the way. You try to study the chain of events and figure out which decisions could have been made differently to break the chain.

By saying "these things happen", and then brushing it away, other people don't get to benefit and learn from the incident, and that's a shame, because it's just as likely to happen again. If the facts are collected in an objective fashion, with no speculation, people can draw their own conclusions and make different decisions.
 
Duster929 said:
Read my post again. There's a difference between improving your riding, and having an artificial goal of moving into a certain group.

Again, I know my opinion will be in the minority. I don't subscribe to the "crashing is inevitable" school of thought. I didn't use that thinking when I learned to ride on the road, I don't see why I have to use it when learning to ride on the track.
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+1, I go to track days as I go skiing, I don't really want to participate to race days though :) I could see nonetheless how for some people enjoyment in such activiteis is relevant only when ranked against somebody elses performance.
 
I'll agree with you Duster. Not trying to sound cold, but I don't buy the accidents happen either. Somewhat related is that I'm a certified forklift instructor and licenser as part of my job. First sentance to every student is "It's always your fault" in that they didn't take into account some factor that contributed to their accident. Mechanical failure aside at the track, it's usually the rider's error and that's how I've looked at my get offs as well. Again my sympathies to the riders.
 
AngeloX19 said:
I'll agree with you Duster. Not trying to sound cold, but I don't buy the accidents happen either. Somewhat related is that I'm a certified forklift instructor and licenser as part of my job. First sentance to every student is "It's always your fault" in that they didn't take into account some factor that contributed to their accident. Mechanical failure aside at the track, it's usually the rider's error and that's how I've looked at my get offs as well. Again my sympathies to the riders.
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It's not a case of not discussing fatalities. It's a case of not doing it while the poor person is still warm. And only discussing it if all the facts are known and if any discussion could be beneficial to the rest of the community. In my opinion.

There are way to many scenarios which can happen at the track which, to be honest, would screw your mind if you tried accounting for them all. Instinct is usually the best defense. And experience breeds instinct. As with most things in life, you can't beat experience.
 
Fiery254 said:
It's not a case of not discussing fatalities. It's a case of not doing it while the poor person is still warm. And only discussing it if all the facts are known and if any discussion could be beneficial to the rest of the community. In my opinion.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly. The only comment I'll make is that hopefully there will be an effort to collect the facts and ultimately draw some conclusions. Usually when it comes to track incidents, this usually doesn't happen. It's more of a "don't talk about it" kind of deal.

There are way to many scenarios which can happen at the track which, to be honest, would screw your mind if you tried accounting for them all. Instinct is usually the best defense. And experience breeds instinct. As with most things in life, you can't beat experience.
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I'd disagree with you on this one. I think instincts are often wrong, particularly in difficult, intense situations, and that's where training comes in. Experience is part of training, among other things. Training, acquired in a cool, calm, rational state of mind, is what's going to save you when the crap hits the fan. When you're dealing with life-and-death type stuff, you can't rely on learning by experience and instinct. Some things, you just don't get to repeat until you get it right.
 
Duster929 said:
I'd disagree with you on this one. I think instincts are often wrong, particularly in difficult, intense situations, and that's where training comes in. Experience is part of training, among other things. Training, acquired in a cool, calm, rational state of mind, is what's going to save you when the crap hits the fan. When you're dealing with life-and-death type stuff, you can't rely on learning by experience and instinct. Some things, you just don't get to repeat until you get it right.
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+1

Experience means nothing unless you learn properly from it.

So many people practice lapping on track days without ever analyzing what they're doing wrong. They'll do lap after lap, session after session, track day after track day, and have tons of experience running the same wrong lines, upsetting the suspension, etc.

A similar rider with the same aptitude with much less experience but more training will leap frog the rider above, having the benefit of a third party with more knowledge (and good coaching skills) critique their riding and teach them new skills and techniques.
 
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