Managing amateur track day risk

[ZX600]

I only have one thing to add, everything else has been explained with great maturity.

In the intermediate group, some riders focus too much on passing, and not the next corner. This year alone, I have seen 3 people pass me and then crash/ride off the track at the next turn or the one after. When I am passed I remind myself to FOCUS on where I want to go, and not where the other bike is going. If they drive off, I don't want to follow them.

Overall, you have a lot of control. You don't always need to accelerate at 100% in the straights, sometime 95% is just enough to open up some space around you.

had guys pass me on the straight to then park it on the corner and make me brake hard behind them, i always wonder why is there a need to pass me on such tight straight (i.e tmp between 5 and 6), I think you are right.

SO my point is, just wait a couple of more corners and then pass me on the long straight, or pass me anywhere you want but only if you are significantly faster than me, but don't struggle to pass me so then you can make me brake on the next corner

 

[murf]

They want to pass you, they are not going to think like that.

 

[Panici]

First off, i'd like to give my condolences to Calvin's family and friends.
It's tragic when anyone is seriously injured or killed in motorsport, but it hits a little closer to home when it's local.

Moving over to let the people behind pass...? Arrrrghhh NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Have to agree .....the faster guys will find their own way around.

I wish they would PUSH/REPEAT this point at the riders meetings.

At my first TD, I was moving over and waving people by etc. It's intimidating when there's such a speed difference. I had no idea at the time how dangerous it is to be unpredictable.

If you ride like there's no one else behind you, it's safer for everyone.

Now that i'm the one who's a little quicker in beginner, the positions are reversed. I've had people wave me by and change their lines so I can get by. Instead of passing (and encouraging this behavior), I wait until I can make a clean pass that won't startle them.

 

[dricked]

You know when your the faster guy in the beginner group and should be using caution trying to pass any rider at any level. I've almost been hit someone I was stuck behind a slower rider and waiting till the approprite time to pass but the hothead behind me was too impatient to wait for one more corner. I've always been told to not look back, you know when your holding someone up so just go a little slower down the straight. I've tried passing slower guys but they think were racing and try and out brake me into the corner so they can stay ahead only to hold me up for the rest of the track. I'll be moving up on the next track day so I'll be the slow guy in the group.If your a predictable rider is there any reason why you can't go straight to advanced instead of intermediate?

 

[caboose56]

You know when your the faster guy in the beginner group and should be using caution trying to pass any rider at any level. I've almost been hit someone I was stuck behind a slower rider and waiting till the approprite time to pass but the hothead behind me was too impatient to wait for one more corner. I've always been told to not look back, you know when your holding someone up so just go a little slower down the straight. I've tried passing slower guys but they think were racing and try and out brake me into the corner so they can stay ahead only to hold me up for the rest of the track. I'll be moving up on the next track day so I'll be the slow guy in the group.If your a predictable rider is there any reason why you can't go straight to advanced instead of intermediate?

The difference in pace can lead to complications. That being said, i find that the intermediate group is usually the most sketchy.

 

[dricked]

That was my thought, but I if you have a good pace and keep your lines? I've noticed that there's alot of guys who are quick but all over the track in intermediate (not always or everyone) so thought advanced would be a safer place with the more experienced/predictable guys.

 

[caboose56]

Yes, despite the faster pace the advanced group is usually the safest group.. but not always. If your pace is decent and you're riding pretty well there really is no reason why you couldn't ride in the advanced group. I only ever did one day in the intermediate group, i wanted to move up as soon as i was able.

 

[Fiery254]

Yes, despite the faster pace the advanced group is usually the safest group.. but not always. If your pace is decent and you're riding pretty well there really is no reason why you couldn't ride in the advanced group. I only ever did one day in the intermediate group, i wanted to move up as soon as i was able.

I've just jumped to the red group with Turn 2 and have to say this is so true. The 'fear factor' of jumping to red disappeared within about 1/2 a lap. First off I wasn't spending time trying to negotiate slower riders. But, secondly, every pass made on me was over almost before I knew it and caused little or no distraction. In fact, having someone fly by you on a tight, decreasing radius corner is agood learning tool. Now, when I ride Pro 6 days I'm back in intermediate. But Pro 6 intermediate pace tends to be good, and with generally good skill level riders.

And I suppose there's another lesson here. Riding fast with one organisation at one particular track doesn't put you in fast group on every track in the world.

 

[Geeser]

Riding fast with one organisation at one particular track doesn't put you in fast group on every track in the world.

This is getting back to my original point. I recognize that I don't yet have the skill or experience to stay on proper lines, so before I venture to a track day, I intend to take another course to get more instruction and practice time. However, others may be less patient than me. How often does a track day include a rider who really shouldn't be there? To what extent can/do organizers control who signs up for their track day?

 

[meme]

Put an X on the back of your suit would be my advice. When I started I didn't know where I was going so how could other riders? The X signifies to me that you are just trying to figure it all out so it is MY responsibility to be cautious when near.

I just try and be preditable.

As for your second query - it takes a session or two for it to become obvious to the organizers and the marshalls that there may be an issue. Before this they are just taking the riders word for it. As a rider I am suspicious for the first couple of sessions if I don't recognize the suit/rider if I come up on them.

My heart is out to P6, Bogie staff, medics and marshalls. Also the riders participating that day. For the family and friends I have a big lump in my throat when I try and imagine what they may be going through. big hugs

 

[rmemedic]

How often does a track day include a rider who really shouldn't be there? To what extent can/do organizers control who signs up for their track day?

The organizers will listen to the riders if more than a couple guys complain about a certain individual.

I've seen guys riding over their head get talked to and they either calmed down the next session or they were kicked out.
Usually takes a couple sessions for them to get talked to so they have a chance to prove it.

Since I ride with the same organization each week, I now recognize who is who on the track and who I can ride hard and who I have to be carefull around.

 

[Fiery254]

This is getting back to my original point. I recognize that I don't yet have the skill or experience to stay on proper lines, so before I venture to a track day, I intend to take another course to get more instruction and practice time. However, others may be less patient than me. How often does a track day include a rider who really shouldn't be there? To what extent can/do organizers control who signs up for their track day?

To be honest another course to get more instruction and practise time isn't going to help you learn the layout, corners and lines on individual tracks. Yes it will help you with correct riding technique. But the only way to do improve is by riding the tracks. I know Calabogie well. I know Mosport less well. I know Laguna Seca not at all. I will vary my riding group according to the track I'm visiting, and the track day organiser. If in doubt begin at the bottom. It'll take 1 session to find out if you're in the right group or not. As an example, I'm looking to book a day at Mosport with Pro 6. A track I'm not very familiar with and an organisation that tends to have strong, experienced riders. I'm contemplating booking beginner to give myself time to learn and get up to speed. If I have to run the entire day in beginner then so be it. You have to be sensible in your choices even before you get to the track.

As to "How often does a track day include a rider who really shouldn't be there?" Almost every day I'd say. But then a lot of that is perception.

 

[murf]

You know when your the faster guy in the beginner group and should be using caution trying to pass any rider at any level. I've almost been hit someone I was stuck behind a slower rider and waiting till the approprite time to pass but the hothead behind me was too impatient to wait for one more corner. I've always been told to not look back, you know when your holding someone up so just go a little slower down the straight. I've tried passing slower guys but they think were racing and try and out brake me into the corner so they can stay ahead only to hold me up for the rest of the track. I'll be moving up on the next track day so I'll be the slow guy in the group.If your a predictable rider is there any reason why you can't go straight to advanced instead of intermediate?

some organiErs have general laptime requirements......again if you are alot slower than the others there is a closing speed danger. If you are significantly slower they can bump you down into the appropriate group. Besides, if others used this logic then half the red group would be full of intermediate riders and red riders would be stuck in slower groups.

 

[CrazyKell]

I don't believe that anyone is trying to make a bad situation worse, I don't believe anyone is trying to blame anyone for anything. This thread wasn't created to discuss the events at Calabogie on Monday either so I don't think the introduction of those events into this discussion means we should have to tip toe around it.

You can call me a cold hearted ***.. I don't care and I'm sure Chris has nothing nice to say about me.. I don't care about that either. I lost a friend too on Monday too so be mindful of that when you read what i write. A tragedy isn't necessarily a waste if we can learn something from it. With the ever growing popularity of trackdays and racing there are more and more noobs entering the sport. I think it's worthwhile to have a discussion like this for their benefit. If Cal's passing helps remind us all that the dangers of this sport are real and keeps us all a little safer then i would consider that a silver lining. It's nowhere near an even trade but i think it's something meaningful.

Take that for what it's worth.

I'm surprised you have any with your attitude.

I don't think anyone was trying to stop the discussion of mitigating track day risks. But it's rather soon to be discussing THIS particular track day incident. And yes, even though you're a cold hearted *** (by your own admission) I would think you would be able to see that.

On topic:
I have only been to one track day with one organiser, but regardless of day or organiser there will always be risk and as far as I've seen, the organisers have tried to minimize that risk whenever possible. But at the end of the day, like driving on the street, anything can happen.

 

[toastman]

My sincere condolences for your loss.

Donald

I don't believe that anyone is trying to make a bad situation worse, I don't believe anyone is trying to blame anyone for anything. This thread wasn't created to discuss the events at Calabogie on Monday either so I don't think the introduction of those events into this discussion means we should have to tip toe around it.

You can call me a cold hearted ***.. I don't care and I'm sure Chris has nothing nice to say about me.. I don't care about that either. I lost a friend too on Monday too so be mindful of that when you read what i write. A tragedy isn't necessarily a waste if we can learn something from it. With the ever growing popularity of trackdays and racing there are more and more noobs entering the sport. I think it's worthwhile to have a discussion like this for their benefit. If Cal's passing helps remind us all that the dangers of this sport are real and keeps us all a little safer then i would consider that a silver lining. It's nowhere near an even trade but i think it's something meaningful.

Take that for what it's worth.

 

[caboose56]

I'm surprised you have any with your attitude.

I don't think anyone was trying to stop the discussion of mitigating track day risks. But it's rather soon to be discussing THIS particular track day incident. And yes, even though you're a cold hearted *** (by your own admission) I would think you would be able to see that.

On topic:
I have only been to one track day with one organiser, but regardless of day or organiser there will always be risk and as far as I've seen, the organisers have tried to minimize that risk whenever possible. But at the end of the day, like driving on the street, anything can happen.

I'm glad you felt it necessary to throw some insults in there despite my efforts to remain neutral. Thank you. I didn't raise any of the topics being discussed here, nor did i relate any of them to what happened at Calabogie. However, they have been brought up and they're worth discussing. I've been doing this longer than a lot of people who may be reading this. I can offer to share what i've learned through my track riding experience to help others that simply don't know as much. If that means i shouldn't have any friends or that i am a cold hearted *** in your eyes.... then so be it.

Not every worthwhile discussion is pleasant. I take track safety very seriously and feel that we all as riders have obligations, not just the organizers. Sometimes it takes something bad happening to bring issues like this to the forefront of our minds. If there's a better time to discuss the aspects of on-track rider safety than right now, when lots of people are paying attention, I can't think of it.

 

[CrazyKell]

I'm glad you felt it necessary to throw some insults in there despite my efforts to remain neutral. Thank you. I didn't raise any of the topics being discussed here, nor did i relate any of them to what happened at Calabogie. However, they have been brought up and they're worth discussing. I've been doing this longer than a lot of people who may be reading this. I can offer to share what i've learned through my track riding experience to help others that simply don't know as much. If that means i shouldn't have any friends or that i am a cold hearted *** in your eyes.... then so be it.

Not every worthwhile discussion is pleasant. I take track safety very seriously and feel that we all as riders have obligations, not just the organizers. Sometimes it takes something bad happening to bring issues like this to the forefront of our minds. If there's a better time to discuss the aspects of on-track rider safety than right now, when lots of people are paying attention, I can't think of it.

You're funny.

 

[caboose56]

My sincere condolences for your loss.

Donald

Thanks Donald. I wish you the same. A lot of us lost a friend on Monday.

You're funny.

I'm glad you find this amusing.

 

[mobius]

having ridden in all 3 groups several times for a few different organizers, I've always found that the expert group is the safest and intermediate is the most dangerous. and this has nothing to do with lap times.

 

[Tonto]

having ridden in all 3 groups several times for a few different organizers, I've always found that the expert group is the safest and intermediate is the most dangerous. and this has nothing to do with lap times.

without question!