Lidar
- Thread starter abkdt41
- Start date
abkdt41
Well-known member
I have the disclosure and it had the officers notes regarding the stop and also how he tested the machine along with a portion of the lidar manual that deals with testing and calibration.
Allegedly, 30 over in a construction zone and nothing was reduced. 2 way traffic...single lanes
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Allegedly, 30 over in a construction zone and nothing was reduced. 2 way traffic...single lanes
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samurai
Well-known member
Fines are doubled in construction zone...at least in Ontraio. Show up and talk to the clerk and ask him/her if anything can be done regarding points or you may get lucky if cops is no show. (others may suggest finding out more about the radar used, when was it last calibrated, was the officer trained to use that radar, etc etc. I am not too knowledgeable about that path)
To have any hope of beating a speeding ticket you'd best hire a paralegal, trust me...and even then, they won't guarantee squat. Most will tell you they'll attempt to plead it down if possible (and that's far from guaranteed) but your odds of having it completely thrown out are slim to none unless you can find something VERY major at fault with the ticket, the evidence...or the officer doesn't show up.
Even pleading down the points or the $$$ value it'll still show up on your record so you save a little on the fine but insurance penalty remains the same in the end. If they'll knock it down to a lower overage figure (10 over vs 30) that will help however, but that also is far from guaranteed...but your odds a better with a paralegal.
I've spent some time sitting in court watching people trying to beat speeding tickets. They usually go something like this-
-Crown reads off details
-Defendant pleas case based on "I was going downhill", "I didn't notice I was speeding", "I was in a rush!"...the usual arguments. They've heard them all a million times.
-Judge asks "Do your brakes work and do you know how to use them?" for first scenario, "Ignorance is no excuse" for second, and "No excuse" for the last. Again, they've heard them all.
-Defendant blubbers some other irrlevant details, often incriminates themselves by saying the wrong thing.
-Judge slams gavel for the crown and the FULL charge stands.
.....aaaaannd, you're done.
Even pleading down the points or the $$$ value it'll still show up on your record so you save a little on the fine but insurance penalty remains the same in the end. If they'll knock it down to a lower overage figure (10 over vs 30) that will help however, but that also is far from guaranteed...but your odds a better with a paralegal.
I've spent some time sitting in court watching people trying to beat speeding tickets. They usually go something like this-
-Crown reads off details
-Defendant pleas case based on "I was going downhill", "I didn't notice I was speeding", "I was in a rush!"...the usual arguments. They've heard them all a million times.
-Judge asks "Do your brakes work and do you know how to use them?" for first scenario, "Ignorance is no excuse" for second, and "No excuse" for the last. Again, they've heard them all.
-Defendant blubbers some other irrlevant details, often incriminates themselves by saying the wrong thing.
-Judge slams gavel for the crown and the FULL charge stands.
.....aaaaannd, you're done.
samurai
Well-known member
Based on my past experience, Paralegals don't do anything other than speaking to the clerk before going into the courtroom to find out what can be done to reduce charge/fine, you can do that yourself. I have done it, the clerk will give you your options. The clerk will even tell you if the cop is there or not. (Maybe I just didn't hire the right ones)
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I'll agree that a paralegal is far from a magic bullet, however they do know court room procedure, they do know the court staff, they usually know all of the officers (often they're former officers themselves), and they know the judges. All of that put together give you much better odds of a successful outcome. I do think the OP needs to adjust his expectations on what constitutes a successful outcome however – unless you can find a critical fly with the ticket or something to I do think the OP needs to adjust his expectations on what constitutes a successful outcome however – unless you can find a critical flaw with the ticket or something the officer failed to do (which doesn't seem likely given the disclosure statement indicates all the usual "outs" aren't there), I think that's possible outcome is a reduced fine, however the charge itself is going to stick even if it's on a reduced overage number at best.
I think a paralegal is money well spent is if you end up in the court room versus the pre-negotiation stage. Once you're in the courtroom in front of the judge it's no longer a negotiation on technicalities, it's court procedure - The time for negotiation or a reduced plea is past, you've chosen to fight the full charge and if you lose you're going to take the full hit. And I come full-circle to the reality that it's very unlikely you will get this charge thrown out.
I think a paralegal is money well spent is if you end up in the court room versus the pre-negotiation stage. Once you're in the courtroom in front of the judge it's no longer a negotiation on technicalities, it's court procedure - The time for negotiation or a reduced plea is past, you've chosen to fight the full charge and if you lose you're going to take the full hit. And I come full-circle to the reality that it's very unlikely you will get this charge thrown out.
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abkdt41
Well-known member
Fill in the plea section on the back of the ticket and follow the directions, they will walk you through everything from that point forward – you will get to do the negotiation stage just before your court appointment, they will tell you to arrive an hour or so early for it.
The only two options for what you're hoping to accomplish is "guilty with an explanation", or "not guilty". If you choose the latter option you better have a absolute 100% concrete case for dismissal otherwise you are usually throwing out your options for a negotiated lower fine settlement - the Crown will usually pursue the full ticket in that case after the negotiation stage...and once again, unless you have a concrete case for having the ticket completely thrown out you're likely pissing into the wind with that option.
If you plead guilty with an explanation you are effectively accepting guilt, but you have a better chance of getting a reduced fine with the charge standing the same, or if the crown prosecutor is in a particularly good mood you may get the ticket knocked down to a lesser offense. Either way you're going to end up with something on your record, it might be less severe that's all.
The only two options for what you're hoping to accomplish is "guilty with an explanation", or "not guilty". If you choose the latter option you better have a absolute 100% concrete case for dismissal otherwise you are usually throwing out your options for a negotiated lower fine settlement - the Crown will usually pursue the full ticket in that case after the negotiation stage...and once again, unless you have a concrete case for having the ticket completely thrown out you're likely pissing into the wind with that option.
If you plead guilty with an explanation you are effectively accepting guilt, but you have a better chance of getting a reduced fine with the charge standing the same, or if the crown prosecutor is in a particularly good mood you may get the ticket knocked down to a lesser offense. Either way you're going to end up with something on your record, it might be less severe that's all.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is no lesser offence in the eyes of insurance here. He is looking at a minor ticket here, a lower speed will still be a minor ticket. For the vast majority of people, demerit points don't matter at all.
Your best bet on your own is a cop no show, failing that, plead poor and hope for a fine reduction (or hire a good paralegal like Forch to try to get a win, but that will probably cost more than the ticket).
Reduced ticket will result in the same insurance consequences. In general, when you go to court, your best chance of getting off lies in the Holy Trinity:
1) Officer no-show
2) Lack of disclosure
3) 11b
If you take it all the way to the courtroom the crown usually fights for the full ticket at that point unless, again, you can find a fatal flaw (at which point you should have had it thrown out at the negotiation stage with the prosecutor) or the officer doesn't show. Usually the judge isn't interested in negotiating at that point, it's guilty or not guilty - he may ask if you need additional time to pay, that's about it.
Basically, if you think you have a legitimate "out" plan, exercise it with the prosecutor at negotiation - if they stand fast at that stage (aka, they know you don't have evidence to beat the charge) and you don't accept what they offer (reduced fine most common), again, unless the officer doesn't show you're almost certainly gonna lose in the courtroom.
Most common mistake that people make in the courtroom is incriminating themselves, especially if you're trying to get off on a technicality, aka, suggesting the radar/laser was not calibrated, it was sensing someone else, etc. One wrong word slip and the crown and judge will jump all over you and you're screwed. This is where a paralegal is helpful, they know better than to say or state incriminating things.
The courtroom process can be tense and intimidating. Your best laid plans can fall apart in a heartbeat if you're nervous.
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I believe 30 over is NOT considered a minor, could be wrong.
10 over is considered minor for all intents and purposes however, yes. Will it effect your insurance rate at renewal? Impossible to say. I negotiated a 28 over to 10 over 3 years ago (I knew beating it was impossible) and it never effected me whatsoever. Nearly 30 over probably would have. Different insurance companies are likely to be different...and if that 10 over is added to another existing ticket, or a string of others worse yet, yeah, it's gonna have an effect almost certainly.
If I were the OP I'd go this route:
- Choose guilty with an explanation
- Attend court the day of your appt
- Tactfully try to find out of the officer is there or not. Don't be surprised if they don't tell you so you may have to be creative in your tactics vs just asking for yes/no attendance.
- If he's not there and you think he may not be still by the time you're in front of the judge, decide if you want to make that gamble and take the ticket to the courtroom. If he's no show, it'll get tossed.
- If he's there, negotiate with the prosecutor and try to get the ticket down to 10 over and a reduced fine. Your chances of winning anything better beyond that moment in time is slim.
yes, 11b (as mentioned) is also a very worthwhile tactic, particularly when you know you're otherwise likely going to loose anyways. If a long delay moves the potential enforcement date against your licence past your insurance renewal date it could be helpful as well even if the 11b doesn't work - the ticket could be a year or more old before your insurance company runs your record and sees it.
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joey12jet1
Well-known member
Just curious, what happens if the cop is a no-show? What would you do next? Do you beat the charge already? I dont have any ticket yet, but in case i need the info for future reference. =)
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If the officers isnt present and the prosecutor is fully aware of the fact that he likely won't be by the time you reach the court room..they might throw it out right then and there at negotiation - be prepared to stand your ground on this however, again you need to be careful what you say.
If you do you make it all the way to the court room and you're standing in front of the judge and the officer isn't there, I think you'll find that the judge will ask if he's present (to confirm he's not), and if not pretty much throw out the charge at that point in time - potentialy without any interaction whatsoever from you..but be polite and suggest that without the officers presence the crown can't prove you're guilt.
Again, it's always important to be careful what you say – although I think from a legal standpoint it's probably unlikely, if the officer doesn't show up and you jump up-and-down and blurt out something 100% incriminating...who knows what might happen - The judge could state that the officers presence is unnecessary since you're basically admitting guilt at that moment in time and you may screw yourself.
A good rule to remember in the court is to not speak unless you're spoken to, and then pick and choose your words very carefully.
If you do you make it all the way to the court room and you're standing in front of the judge and the officer isn't there, I think you'll find that the judge will ask if he's present (to confirm he's not), and if not pretty much throw out the charge at that point in time - potentialy without any interaction whatsoever from you..but be polite and suggest that without the officers presence the crown can't prove you're guilt.
Again, it's always important to be careful what you say – although I think from a legal standpoint it's probably unlikely, if the officer doesn't show up and you jump up-and-down and blurt out something 100% incriminating...who knows what might happen - The judge could state that the officers presence is unnecessary since you're basically admitting guilt at that moment in time and you may screw yourself.
A good rule to remember in the court is to not speak unless you're spoken to, and then pick and choose your words very carefully.
