Licence testing for towing recreational trailers ? | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Licence testing for towing recreational trailers ?

Our entire testing and licensing system could use an upgrade... Some Scandinavian countries require both summer and winter driving tests - I'd support this in Canada, for instance.

Towing, could definately be a separate endorsement on the license - I pull a 26' foot camper (roughly 6500# loaded) - I also have a DZ and CDL; and am not unfamiliar with towing... A lot of my fellow RV'ers do not have the same driving experience, and to be fair, watching some of them drive or back into sites; is a major source of entertainment at the campground.
 
crankcall said:
We all see it , 1500lb boat going to cottage on a single axle 1500lb trailer, with 800lbs of cottage opening stuff in the boat. And no spare, or jack if they have a spare , on the shoulder of the 400. I followed a small trailer last week , lights but not pluged in , no plate, loaded with furniture, did not stay behind them long .
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So many overloaded trucks - The commercials and RV dealers are to blame - you see a Toyota pulling 100,000 pounds on TV; you roll into the RV dealership with a 3/4t and the salesman says you can pull anything on the lot.

Without understanding axle weights, GVWR/GCWR, tongue weights, payloads and more - people end up overloaded...

Sure, your 1/2t may be able to tow 11,000 pounds according to salesmath - but lets say you've got an 1100 pound payload (RAM, GM twins - looking in your direction); add a wife, a kid, some gear in the bed - your remaining payload is down to 700 pounds - for a bumper pull, you want 15% of your tongue weight on the hitch (for stability) - suddenly your safe trailer weight is down to 5000 pounds... you need to keep 10-15% for 'stuff', need to be shopping for a dry trailer around 4000-4500 pounds - less than half of what your truck could supposedly tow.

And 1/2t towable fivers? Forget it - unless you've got a base model, regular cab long box pickup with the heavy tow package, you're going to be over on at least some of your weights....
 
OntFF said:
Correct - but incorrect, as well... as long as you're legal in your home jurisdiction (Michigan, looking at you) - you can legally drive in reciprocal territories. Michigan's got some pretty relaxed double-tow requirements, and we get lots of them into Northern Ontario in moose season.
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Incorrect - don't get license reciprocity confused with vehicle configuration reciprocity which isn't a thing, especially in this case.

Licence requirements are reciprocal, so for example even though Michigan requires a drivers licence endorsement for recreational doubles, I wouldn't need it while driving there because my class a drivers license covers it. It does not, however, automatically reciprocate on vehicle configurations. This is why you will not see commercial super B trains in New York State (or many other US states where they're also not legal, for example) despite being legal here, or the same reason you don't see triple-trailer A trains here in Ontario despite being legal in places like Indiana.
 
OntFF said:
So many overloaded trucks - The commercials and RV dealers are to blame - you see a Toyota pulling 100,000 pounds on TV; you roll into the RV dealership with a 3/4t and the salesman says you can pull anything on the lot.

Without understanding axle weights, GVWR/GCWR, tongue weights, payloads and more - people end up overloaded...

Sure, your 1/2t may be able to tow 11,000 pounds according to salesmath - but lets say you've got an 1100 pound payload (RAM, GM twins - looking in your direction); add a wife, a kid, some gear in the bed - your remaining payload is down to 700 pounds - for a bumper pull, you want 15% of your tongue weight on the hitch (for stability) - suddenly your safe trailer weight is down to 5000 pounds... you need to keep 10-15% for 'stuff', need to be shopping for a dry trailer around 4000-4500 pounds - less than half of what your truck could supposedly tow.

And 1/2t towable fivers? Forget it - unless you've got a base model, regular cab long box pickup with the heavy tow package, you're going to be over on at least some of your weights....
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I towed a 26 foot sailboat from Toronto to Midland with a F-100 straight six and three speed manual. I didn't set any speed records and the main concern was the hill down to the marina. The electric brakes worked great.

Would I want to do it on a regular basis? Not on your life.

Personally, I've seen more grief from unsecured loads than from errant trailers.
 
I think the enforcement re trailer setup / towing vehicle in Ontario is minimal, you can probably get away with just about anything, no one is going to stop you to verify tow capacity or your license.

People from BC tell me the police there are much more proactive in checking rigs for issues / capacity etc........ They're much better informed and can tell at a glance if a certain truck has the capacity or is set up properly to tow the RV connected to it. BC has had a lot of issues with improperly set up trucks ending up wrecked at the bottom of a mountain.
 
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ReSTored said:
People from BC tell me the police there are much more proactive in checking rigs for issues / capacity etc........ They're much better informed and can tell at a glance if a certain truck has the capacity or is set up properly to tow the RV connected to it. BC has had a lot of issues with improperly set up trucks ending up wrecked at the bottom of a mountain.
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Going up and down mountains will do that for you. Hence the runaway lanes.
 
BC doesn't play around because "**** around" turns into "find out" almost every time if they don't. And then a critical road ends up closed for hours and hours while they clean up the resulting mess.

A lot of RV'ers find out the hard way in BC that what the RV dealer told them and what's actually safe/legal are two different things. A lot of people get angry about it all, but that seems to be the norm now in the "thE guVernMent shOUld sTAy ouT of mY bUSineSS" crowd who thinks that the rules of society don't apply to them.
 
PrivatePilot said:
Double trailers are 100% limited to only class A licence holders in Ontario. Not the AR, D, or any other class of licence can haul more than 1 trailer.
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Are you sure about this? We tow around an ATV enclosed trailer followed by a 16’ boat trailer in a double config.

The OPP said G can tow a double trailer less than 10,000lbs total towed load . Above that needs A.

Towing vehicle must be any pickup 1/2 ton or bigger, or any truck, van, or SUV with commercial registration.
 
Mad Mike said:
Are you sure about this? We tow around an ATV enclosed trailer followed by a 16’ boat trailer in a double config.

The OPP said G can tow a double trailer less than 10,000lbs total towed load . Above that needs A.

Towing vehicle must be any pickup 1/2 ton or bigger, or any truck, van, or SUV with commercial registration.
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Absolutely sure. Take a look at the D class licence for example, in many MTO documents it specifically states single trailer - it's referenced under the AR in some places as well. There's no way a D would limit to 1 but G would allow 2.

The A is the only one that specifically mentions multiple trailers.

OPP isn't a good source for this info, they don't know half the laws they're supposed to enforce half the time it seems. Go talk to a green hornet though....or the wrong OPP officer who *does* know the law. I see boat trailers sitting on the shoulder of the road in the north or along highway 7 fairly often in the summer, and flat tires or burned bearings isn't the reason they're there....
 
MM and PP....
You two had this exact discussion a few years ago on here..

I'm pretty sure you're good to pull a double with a g.. with a commercially registered vehicle.
 
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The AR *specifically* restricts it. D specifically mentions "towed vehicle" (singular). Class G is non-commercial (and a black plate pickup truck doesn't count) as not being allowed to tow doubles UNLESS the driver holds a full A.

Read all the MTO docs and you'll see that the only class that clearly mentions "trailers" or "vehicles" in plural and specifically mentions combinations of multiple trailers several times is the class A.

A lot of people FAFO on this topic being forced to drop their second trailer before being allowed to continue. A lot get away with it as well until they meet the wrong MTO or OPP one day. Doesn't mean it's legal.
 
Didn't this all change in the early naughts?
I remember when it changed there was whole bunch of racers that had to get new transporters.
NOW a nice transporter will run you upwards of a $1,000,000 and $25,000/yr to insure it.
 
raginduck said:
MM and PP....
You two had this exact discussion a few years ago on here..

I'm pretty sure you're good to pull a double with a g.. with a commercially registered vehicle.
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I've never had issue. I mostly pull way up north, short distances on secondary highways, full size PU with small trailers.

I think the way the HTA works is it first classifies vehicles, then matches licenses to those classifications. 'Class A vehicle' is a truck with trailer(s) over 4600kg. Nothing in the HTA classifies a double tow under 4600kg as a class A vehicle. Those restrictions you speak of are on Class A double tows, meaning the tow is over 4600kg.

Most tow truck drivers only have G licenses, the highway guys pickup vehicles with trailers all the time.

Here's the HTA on G licences. Note towed vehicles in the plural. No reference to single trailer.

Class G — any motor vehicle not exceeding 11,000 kilograms gross weight or registered gross weight and any combination of a motor vehicle not exceeding a total gross weight or registered gross weight of 11,000 kilograms and towed vehicles where the towed vehicles do not exceed a total gross weight of 4,600 kilograms, but not... (motorcycles, bus carrying passengers; or ambulance providing ambulance service).
 
Thankfully my truck has a bed capacity of 3480lbs and a tow capacity of 13450. So I can put 800lbs of Canadian dufus in the truck, put 1100lbs of weight on the tongue, a 300lb dirtbike + two spares in the bed, no problem. (or a full yard of dirt, the truck rides better that way). And still pull 7000lbs of bikes and trailer. Tally that up and I'm well below GVWR even with the camper and yes, I do pay attention.

May I also say that I often put a (400lb) motorcycle in the nose of my trailer just to give a little more tongue weight, it actually makes the ride of the truck nicer. Paying attention to how you lay out the trailer is just as important as the overall weight. I stagger the load front to back if it's not full and give priority to the fore of the trailer rather than the rear. Twin electric axle brakes, too, manually tested every time I get back in the truck.

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Mad Mike said:
I've never had issue. I mostly pull way up north, short distances on secondary highways, full size PU with small trailers.

I think the way the HTA works is it first classifies vehicles, then matches licenses to those classifications. 'Class A vehicle' is a truck with trailer(s) over 4600kg. Nothing in the HTA classifies a double tow under 4600kg as a class A vehicle. Those restrictions you speak of are on Class A double tows, meaning the tow is over 4600kg.

Most tow truck drivers only have G licenses, the highway guys pickup vehicles with trailers all the time.

Here's the HTA on G licences. Note towed vehicles in the plural. No reference to single trailer.

Class G — any motor vehicle not exceeding 11,000 kilograms gross weight or registered gross weight and any combination of a motor vehicle not exceeding a total gross weight or registered gross weight of 11,000 kilograms and towed vehicles where the towed vehicles do not exceed a total gross weight of 4,600 kilograms, but not... (motorcycles, bus carrying passengers; or ambulance providing ambulance service).
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Link to where you got that last bit from? There's tons of wrong info out there. This thread is generating future google results case in point. If it's not from an MTO source it's quite likely just wrong.

So you're suggesting despite class D and even the new AR designed specifically for heavy RV owners *specifically* not allowing double trailers, it's perfectly cool with a class G?

Does that logic hold up to you?
 
PrivatePilot said:
It sucks to have that debate on the side of the road a few hundred km from home.
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Like with the legal decision about standing on pegs not being stunt driving, if I was going to tempt fate, I would carry the legal backup in my pocket and hope the cop is being reasonable. If they choose to ignore the information I give them, that should help in court when they have to explain to the JP why they choice to ignore laws/precedent and choose their own adventure.
 
Except there's is no gray areas, on MTO documents on licence classes "towed vehicle(s)" is pluralized in licence classes that are allowed multiple trailers, and it is singular in licence clases where it's not.

I'm interested admittedly to find out where @Mad Mike quoted from to find it in plural but I'm reasonably confident it wasn't an MTO source.

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Right from the MTO regarding towing and class G. Notice not pluralized. Now reference above again on my earlier screenshots to how it's stated in the class A.
 
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