Left Lane Loafers - Watch This

[moarmoto]

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How about the notion of having a centralized hub somewhere a little bit outside the city for big trailer trucks, then using smaller trucks for deliveries within the city?

I remember vaguely reading about it years ago.

Truck drivers wanna chime in whether that could do anything?

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[Blackfin]

Have you ever gone across the 401 in the middle of the night? TONS of trucks passing through - a lot of drivers do very intentionally try to time their transit across big cities to the middle of the night simply to avoid the fustercluck that is the constant rush hour during the daylight hours.

So what you're saying is that temporally separating trucks and cars is a win-win.

 

[Krime]

That's exactly the sort of idiotic random enforcement that leads to loafers in lanes and uneven traffic flow. Some people hit the brakes when they see they're coming up on a cruiser but others live in perpetual fear of an unfair ticket and live at speeds below the flow rate. Maddening.

Anyone hear anything about that experiment to raise limits a few measly kph in Ontario?

This is exactly why It’s a pet peeve of mine. Because people are scared to do so (rationally or irrationally) it leads to left lane loafers and ruins the flow, then when the cop gets off at an exit ramp the insanity ensues as everyone is picking up speed and switching lanes. The bigger the backlog the worse it is.

I’m seriously surprised to hear people are getting pulled over for reasonably passing a slower cruiser on the highway... I’ve literally done it probably a dozen times in my lifetime so far and have never been stopped. Am I alone in this or have others done the same with no issue?

 

[Trials]

... leads to left lane loafers and ruins the flow, then when the cop gets off at an exit ramp the insanity ensues as everyone is picking up speed and switching lanes. The bigger the backlog the worse it is.

I'm pretty sure the cop thought he was setting the correct flow rate, you just have a faster flow rate,
but don't worry, your flow rate will slow down a little when you get older :|

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm pretty sure the cop thought he was setting the correct flow rate, you just have a faster flow rate,
but don't worry, your flow rate will slow down a little when you get older :|

I've never seen a cop set the correct flow rate. They are either going 100 to 110 and hunting or 130+ and hunting from the rear. Other than the law, there is rarely a reason for 120 to be the wrong speed for same travel on an expressway (that isnt jammed with traffic).

 

[Trials]

There is a reason for the cop to be traveling a little slow, he's probably multi-tasking like crazy at the time.
... probably running your plates among other things.

 

[GreyGhost]

... probably running your plates among other things.

I'm happy to have them run my plates. Nothing to be found there.

On the other hand, that should be illegal. There is an automated solution for this that removes the danger of their distracted driving. Saying that a cop can safely type a plate number in while driving is asinine (or at the very least no different than any normal person typing while driving).

 

[Riceburner]

So far no issues passing cops at just above the limit. Usually no more than 115.

 

[Mad Mike]

Id like to see heavy trucks get some rules and breaks.

1) Rural areas - right lane only except to overtake another vehicle
2) Must slow to 100kmh when being overtaken by another truck
3) Dedicated "truck only lane" through urban Toronto, restrict trucks to that lane, make it the rightmost of the highway.

This would stop trucks from jamming the 401 while overtaking each other in rural areas, and clear a path for them in urban areas.

 

[ReSTored]

So, to start...Do you know how MUCH it costs to take a loaded class 8 truck across the 407 end to end? For a company without a transponder (and not every carrier uses them as the need is not constant, or they are out of province, or out of country...it's NOT realistic to expect every truck to carry one) and towing a heavy configuration, taking the 407 from Lakeridge road in the east to the 401 exit to the west (what most people would reasonably consider the most common go-around for the "GTA"), it's over $200 after taxes and all the fees. Even if the company has a transponder it's still roughly $150 each way.

So, no, trucks just passing through are not going to use it because they are actually losing money (in a big way) in doing so.

Secondly, a good percentage of the trucks you see in the city through the day are actually doing business IN or around the city, not just passing through.

So, force them to go through at night, you say. Been there, heard that - millions of times, same as all the other ideas by people who have no grasp of the realities of the industry. It would cost the province BILLIONS of dollars in the end - companies would flee the province. It would put many small businesses....out of business, and it would jack up consumer prices (yep, what YOU pay for the stuff on the shelves) because of extra staffing requirements. Because you see, what most people forget is that restricting trucks to only using Toronto roads through the day means that stores that are usually closed at night need to staff overnight to accept those deliveries. And then the companies basically only have a half a work day to do 24 hours worth of work. Try squishing your 8 hour work day into 4 hours and see how well that works for you - same concept.

There are SO many logistical reasons why the "just ban trucks through the day!" common knee-jerk reaction is simply totally and completely unrealistic, but people outside the industry just don't grasp it. If it was so easy, trust me, governments across Canada and the USA would have done it decades ago...but studies quickly show that the reality of this is a financial nightmare for economies, and unrealistic.

And in the end, it wouldn't help anyways - almost all traffic jams are caused by CARS, not trucks - again, spend a day in our shoes and you'd see how traffic jams start - cars will jam on their brakes for the stupidest things - any blinky light even if it's 8 lanes on the other side of the highway, 3 drops of rain on their windshield, a gust of wind, lack of basic navigation ability, and lets not even talk about people who can't merge or exit properly or don't drive in the right lane causing lane changes or backups behind them - THIS is what causes traffic jams. The guys in the big trucks with few exceptions don't do these stupid things - most are paid by the mile and have ZERO incentive or desire to want to slow down not only because slower = less $ per hour, but most are on a schedule as well.

If there was 2 lanes adjacent to the 401 solely for trucks you'd discover that it would be flowing at 100KPH 24/7, even when the 401 is dead stop. Us guys know how to avoid doing the stupid things that create traffic jams.

In other words, the whole idea of restricting trucks to certain hours is not only unrealistic, financially disasterous, but in the end, mostly pointless.

Well, like I said, it's a controversial idea, but, really, long term the status quo is really not an option. Investment in transit infrastructure in the GTA (road, subways, LRT's etc....) has been in the tens of billions in the past, has been underfunded by tens of billions and will cost us hundreds of billions over the next 25 - 35 years. Simple adding capacity isn't going to work. Lost productivity in the GTA is already estimated to be billions of dollars per year.

The 407, if not leased long term by the provincial government, could have been an affordable bypass for the GTA for all vehicles, but we know how that turned out. The 407 lease, over its 99 year term, will probably end up being be the largest miscalculation and poorest financial decision by a government in provincial or Canadian history. It's going to cost us hundreds of billions of dollars in lost revenue or opportunity cost.

As to truck traffic in the GTA I don't disagree with you that changing processes would not be easy, however, as one person already pointed out we have thousands ( tens of thousands ??) of trucks in the GTA doing deliveries in a totally uncoordinated manner. How about cross docking facilities where full truck loads are dropped and then goods are sorted by delivery location. Instead of having 100 trucks in a neighborhood over the course of the day dropping off a few to boxes each customer you have 4 or 5 trucks arriving full and then leaving empty. Courier companies do this all the time, You don't see a UPS tractor trailer driving all day all over the GTA dropping a few boxes here and there. Courier packages are consolidated, sorted by zone and drivers use routing software to optimize individual deliveries.

I'm not suggesting re-engineering of the supply chain would be easy or viable for all products but much of the downtown core of the GTA already suffers from virtual gridlock most of the day and it is only going to get worse and businesses will have to change how they operate.

 

[Torren]

This thread is a real knee slapper.

The real laughs come from the people that think that the trucks are the problems on the road.

 

[caboose56]

Why doesn’t this discussion include the middle lane as well?

 

[kiwi]

My opinion, doesn't matter what lane, driving skills and consideration to others is poor here. In 16 yrs of Ontario driving I haven't see it get any better

 

[Trials]

My opinion, doesn't matter what lane, driving skills and consideration to others is poor here. In 16 yrs of Ontario driving I haven't see it get any better

You haven't driven much in the USA?

 

[sburns]

I'm not suggesting re-engineering of the supply chain would be easy or viable for all products but much of the downtown core of the GTA already suffers from virtual gridlock most of the day and it is only going to get worse and businesses will have to change how they operate.

I'm pretty sure the whole GTA is congested throughout the entire day now, not just downtown. I went riding Wednesday and it was a pain to get across the 401 (east to west) in the middle of the day 11:30 am.

Also I suspect a lot of trucking and delivery companies are situated around the airport and lots of that truck traffic is coming from Montreal. Not much choice but to cut through the city.

As well I thought Europeans cities do most of the deliveries at night, I've never really noticed big trucks running around the cities. I dunno maybe I just don't observe it. If they do it at night then something similar should be possible here.

 

[sburns]

You haven't driven much in the USA?

Not sure what point you are making but they seem to be much better drivers and a whole lot more considerate from my experience. I always see people moving out of the way on interstates and rarely hogging left lanes. Could be my experience is limited though.

 

[Trials]

Was speaking to the courteous driver part, I don't see drivers in USA moving to the left when traffic is trying to merge, I consider that to be a courtesy move. Maybe it's illegal there or something.

 

[Mad Mike]

You haven't driven much in the USA?

When you get into big congested cities like Toronto, Boston, NY, Chicago -- drivers are equally aggressive and careless. In smaller places there is more courtesy, as there is in smaller Canadian urban areas.

I'd say the USA open road is better. With the exception of a few states, the interstates are good and the higher speed limits on highways reduce travel time, congestion, and generally make drivers use lanes properly. I find a lot of Ontario drivers oblivious to lane rules altogether.

 

[PrivatePilot]

You guys know how to create traffic jams pretty good too! Where were you when they did that 401 protest truck blockade 6 or 7 years ago that intentionally slowed the entire length of the 401 to a crawl.

It was dumb, organized by a few, and not well supported. It was also many years ago.

How about the notion of having a centralized hub somewhere a little bit outside the city for big trailer trucks, then using smaller trucks for deliveries within the city?

That already happens - there's lots of places that tractor trailers simply don't fit into when it comes to retail however. Reality is that most big trucks coming in and out of the city with business there are going to big factories however. Some places (Grocery warehouses for example) may unload hundreds of trucks in a single day. Lots of other big factories and such the same.

So what you're saying is that temporally separating trucks and cars is a win-win.

No, what I'm saying is that removing cars is a win. CARS doing STUPID THINGS are what initiates traffic jams. Want a great example you can see first hand day in and day out? Come out to Whitby and start watching traffic at the Brock Street overpass around 5AM. Traffic flows great even when it starts to get heavy volume...until some idiot rolls down that stupid dual on-ramp and doesn't accelerate, jams himself into traffic anyways, and everyone needs to slam on the brakes to avoid turning his car into an accordian. Then, boom....a traffic jam that doesn't resolve until usually well after 9 or 10AM.

Happens right there every...single...morning. And that's just one onramp.

How about cross docking facilities where full truck loads are dropped and then goods are sorted by delivery location. Instead of having 100 trucks in a neighborhood over the course of the day dropping off a few to boxes each customer you have 4 or 5 trucks arriving full and then leaving empty.

Start calling every single business in the GTA and get them onboard with that.

Let me know how that works out for you.

Suggesting that is like suggesting that FedEx, UPS, Canada Post, Canpar, Loomis, Purolator, Amazon, DHL and every other little inter-city courier (or which there are countless) should all just give up on competing with each other, stop using their own trucks for deliveries and pickups, and they should just let one of them do all the deliveries and pickups for all the others.

In other words, once again, not reality.

As well I thought Europeans cities do most of the deliveries at night, I've never really noticed big trucks running around the cities.

The entirety of every single European country fits into Canada with space left over.

Here's (for example) the entire United Kingdom overlayed with Western Canada.

In other words, you can drive across the entire length or width of many European countries in a single day. In some cases, hours.

Comparing that to the size of Canada and the resulting transportation realities is apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]

 

[sburns]

The entirety of every single European country fits into Canada with space left over.

Here's (for example) the entire United Kingdom overlayed with Western Canada.

In other words, you can drive across the entire length or width of many European countries in a single day. In some cases, hours.

Comparing that to the size of Canada and the resulting transportation realities is apples and oranges.

Yes I am quite aware of the physical size differences between the our country and over there. We are talking about a city and cities and my observation was the traffic and congestion between the too. Somehow inner city traffic is less truck prone over there then here. I doubt it has little to do with the size of the country as their cities would be equal in size or larger then the GTA and certainly more populated.

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