Law Enforcement - The Good, The Bad, The Ugly.....

[Baggsy]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

Actually, most people here have lived their lives without braking laws. How many laws have you slowed down or stopped?

To the OP - I still don't see why I or anyone else should distrust LEO's as per your title.

Can you please convince me?

 

[Brian P]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

Are we talking about the general populace or this board as a segment of the population. Because I think its different.

No, I'm talking in general.

I've seen orders from the government that were so poorly worded that we couldn't make head nor tail of what the inspector wanted ... and it was concerning a piece of equipment that, upon inspection (not just my opinion - the whole JHSC got involved), met every current standard you care to name for that type of equipment. The order should never have been issued in the first place. The carefully worded response letter that was crafted and scrutinized during a long meeting was very interesting to read ... one has to be very careful when telling someone in power that they don't know what they are talking about. Issue went away ...

I've had the dreaded phone call starting with "the ministry was just here ..." followed by an explanation of what they wanted, followed by my reaction which basically amounted to "are you serious? why would you want to do that? that doesn't make sense", but with additional expletives that can't be mentioned here. (the person on the other end of that phone call is someone I've worked with for 10 years). This was on a piece of equipment that again met every applicable standard to the extent that we know how to do it, and the thing that the government wanted to do would have placed it OUT of compliance by allowing the machine to be started while someone was inside ... we never did what the government wanted, it would have been INSANE to do that - the issue eventually went away.

Automation and robotics is so much fun ... you get to deal with this all the time, and when something happens on a piece of equipment that you've had involvement with, you sure hear about it.

I know from friends that are in the construction industry, that it's just as disconnected from reality over there. Good luck with that reciprocating saw.

Here's another one to chew on. If you are working at heights (3+ metres up) you are supposed to tie off with a harness so that you can't fall down. Fair enough. When working on a roof, how do you get to a position where you can tie off ... without first being tied off? Not very easy to do when you're building the very thing that you could hypothetically tie off to after you're done. Once you get started, it's okay, but someone has to put that first structure up there and secure it ...

Ever see a transport truck driving down the road with a ton of snow blowing off its roof creating a visibility hazard behind it (and possibly throwing chunks of ice at following motorists)? Guess what, the top of that truck is above the height for which tie-off is required and there's nothing to tie-off to up there. So the truck driver isn't allowed to go up there to clear off the top of the truck. Not everyone can park their trailer in an indoor yard overnight ...

There's an article in today's Toronto Sun about how regulations governing how school bus contracts are handed out are killing local school bus operators due to too much red tape.

Over-regulated!

 

[Salos Dafee]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

A question arose, and indeed it arises often here:

Why do you contest a charge, despite believing you committed the offence?
People who ask this question seem to scorn anyone who would contest such a charge.

I can only guess why others contest such charges, but I can explain why I do it.

I have been convicted of offences that I did not commit, because of lies told
by police who charged me only because I stood up for my rights, including the
right to silence when asked questions.

I have seen other defendants convicted because of obvious lies told by cops.

I have seen magistrates side with cops when their shaky tales were contradicted
by other witnesses who presented much more credible evidence.

In short, the prosecution achieves convictions through means I deplore
and scorn. I have negligible respect for those who abandon truth.

I contest any charge that I believe I can beat.
Ya know what? I have beaten quite a few of them.

Ya know what is better? I haven't needed to defend myself since 1984,
and I have ridden and driven as far as from here to the moon in that time.

 

[fastar1]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

...police who charged me only because I stood up for my rights, including the right to silence when asked questions.

If you make someone's life difficult, they're going to try and make your life difficult. And if they have any authority over you then you're just asking for the lubeless love.

Pay heed to the words of wisdom that came immediately before your post:

... one has to be very careful when telling someone in power that they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

Not just possession. Possession, making, and sexual assault. Suspended with pay (as usual), and stay away from parks and schools. You can't make this **** up.

http://www.thestar.com/article/1114070--durham-police-officer-faces-child-porn-sex-assault-charges

 

[Salos Dafee]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

If you make someone's life difficult, they're going to try and make your life difficult. And if they have any authority over you then you're just asking for the lubeless love.

Pay heed to the words of wisdom that came immediately before your post:

I do NOT "make someone's life difficult" if I demand my rights.

If cops give me trouble, SOLELY BECAUSE I STAND UP FOR MY RIGHTS,
then NO BLOODY WONDER they deserve and get lack of respect.

"Where are YOU going???"
"Officer, that is no concern of yours."
"Waddarya, some kind of troublemaker???"

Now, that exact conversation has never happened to me,
but I have had far far too many nosy questions from cops,
which I do not answer. Then the cop acts as if I am the problem.

I hope Toronto's cops learned a bit from G-20. You can go only so far
with a Gestapo attitude, then you get a slap on the wrist ...

 

[fastar1]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

I do NOT "make someone's life difficult" if I demand my rights.

Choosing to remain silent when you aren't charged with anything may or may not be your right in Florida, I don't know, but either way since your rights aren't violated if you choose to talk to him, this has nothing to do with rights.

Your choice to remain silent is only making the officer's life difficult, and nothing more. Unless of course you have something to hide, in which case I would remain silent too, but then I wouldn't expect the cop to all of a sudden become disinterested in me!

 

[caboose56]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

Choosing to remain silent when you aren't charged with anything may or may not be your right in Florida, I don't know, but either way since your rights aren't violated if you choose to talk to him, this has nothing to do with rights.

Your choice to remain silent is only making the officer's life difficult, and nothing more. Unless of course you have something to hide, in which case I would remain silent too, but then I wouldn't expect the cop to all of a sudden become disinterested in me!

But he's righteous. That's all that matters.

A simple answer could satisfy the officer's question and resolve the issue.. but being righteous is more important.

Come on now, are you new?

 

[Baggsy]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

But he's righteous. That's all that matters.

A simple answer could satisfy the officer's question and resolve the issue.. but being righteous is more important.

Come one now, are you new?

But you'd be righteous too, if your loved ones were being exterminated in front of you, by this Gestapo that is patrolling the roads he's travelled.

Or maybe he just exaggerates?

I still haven't figured out why some folks would distrust LEO's based upon one potentially making a non life threatening mistake.

 

[eastcoast_gsx]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

I still haven't figured out why some folks would distrust LEO's based upon one potentially making a non life threatening mistake.

Like most things in life.... it is the little things that really matter.

 

[fastar1]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

Come one now, are you new?

LOL, more and more every day!

 

[Griffin]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

But he's righteous. That's all that matters.

A simple answer could satisfy the officer's question and resolve the issue.. but being righteous is more important.

Come on now, are you new?

I agree with Salos on this one. You don't have to answer cops' questions except in certain circumstances. Answering questions they have no right to have answered is not a good idea.

You have an obligation in our society to protect your rights. If you don't, they disappear. When a cop asks me for information that they are not entitled to, I respectfully decline to give it to them. Usually there is no big deal caused as a result. Sometimes (very rarely and usually only with a number of other factors figured in like what colour you are and how you speak and what type of vehicle you're driving) it means you get the crap beat out of you. Such is life.

But, to just roll over and give anyone in authority anything they ask for is cowardly and/or ill informed and erodes our collective rights. How often have you heard "if you have nothing to hide..."? If everyone just gave up, pretty soon, anyone who doesn't allow their house to be searched without warrant or whatever, might as well say "I'm guilty".

 

[gwelfmike]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

This is what happened this fall-

Headed north on 400 on my fjr-

I pull over my bike after seeing the red and blue lights behind me-

Officer -"Good Day"

Me- "Hi, I guess you want to see my papers?"

"Yes, where you headed?"

"Just headed to Town X"

"Okay, I have you for 132 in a 100, but I followed you for the last km."

"Oh, you know how it is, the sun is out, thinking about what I was to have for lunch in town X, you got any suggestions? you know, important things in life, I did slow down didn't I?????"

"Umm, yea, you did, you slowed down to 128 I would recommend X."

Officer then heads to car.

Officer comes out from car.

"Did you know your insurance slip has expired? ( it expired two weeks before I got pulled over),

"Oh, I forgot to change them up , sorry about that , but it is up to date."

"Yes, I know, but I will give you a choice, I can write you up for 132 in a 100 or a $65.00 for failing to provide current insurance documents. Remeber, option B has not points, you pick."

"I take No points for $65.00 Alex."

"Good choice, that is what I thought you would say, here you go."

Hands me the ticket, I say

"Thank you for your consideration"

"Enjoy the ride"

Ten minutes later, I run into Officer Friendly at Tim Hortons, yes he laughted and so did I.

I do NOT "make someone's life difficult" if I demand my rights.

If cops give me trouble, SOLELY BECAUSE I STAND UP FOR MY RIGHTS,
then NO BLOODY WONDER they deserve and get lack of respect.

"Where are YOU going???"
"Officer, that is no concern of yours."
"Waddarya, some kind of troublemaker???"

Now, that exact conversation has never happened to me,
but I have had far far too many nosy questions from cops,
which I do not answer. Then the cop acts as if I am the problem.

I hope Toronto's cops learned a bit from G-20. You can go only so far
with a Gestapo attitude, then you get a slap on the wrist ...

 

[OpenGambit]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

I think its 100 % wrong for the state to use the invocation of rights to justify further investigation.
Our Courts have established without doubt that simply exerting ones rights can not lead to probable cause or reasonable suspecion.


That being said. I think people should take the course of action that has the highest chance of the best outcome.
Drawing lines in the sand for no reason isn't helpful.

If you are going to fight, fight for something worthwhile.

 

[Brian P]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

gwelfmike, you have an advantage in that conversation that most of the rest of us don't have. Having said that, certainly there are officers out there who properly use their discretion.

And then there's the article in today's National Post ...

83-year-old woman in BC found herself in a situation of being requested to blow into the roadside breath test device. Problem is that her lungs were so weak that she could not blow hard enough to satisfy the device. Charged with failing to provide a breath sample. License suspended, big fine. The government is refusing to give way. Roadside officer said he could smell alcohol on her breath. She doesn't drink, and a blood test shortly afterward verified that: 0. Ridiculous.

 

[OpenGambit]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

gwelfmike, you have an advantage in that conversation that most of the rest of us don't have. Having said that, certainly there are officers out there who properly use their discretion.

And then there's the article in today's National Post ...

83-year-old woman in BC found herself in a situation of being requested to blow into the roadside breath test device. Problem is that her lungs were so weak that she could not blow hard enough to satisfy the device. Charged with failing to provide a breath sample. License suspended, big fine. The government is refusing to give way. Roadside officer said he could smell alcohol on her breath. She doesn't drink, and a blood test shortly afterward verified that: 0. Ridiculous.

Now thats ****ed up.
I know she would win but that should really be dropped asap.

looking at the article, It does look like they are trying to make it right. not that it makes it any better in the first place.

 

[gwelfmike]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

All I do is talk to people with the same respect and courtsey I would expect. I knew I was in the wrong, the Officer was just doing his job, why make it more difficult then it has to be, who wins?. Remember, when you are dead, you are no more dead than the next guy.

gwelfmike, you have an advantage in that conversation that most of the rest of us don't have. Having said that, certainly there are officers out there who properly use their discretion.

And then there's the article in today's National Post ...

83-year-old woman in BC found herself in a situation of being requested to blow into the roadside breath test device. Problem is that her lungs were so weak that she could not blow hard enough to satisfy the device. Charged with failing to provide a breath sample. License suspended, big fine. The government is refusing to give way. Roadside officer said he could smell alcohol on her breath. She doesn't drink, and a blood test shortly afterward verified that: 0. Ridiculous.

 

[caboose56]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

I agree with Salos on this one. You don't have to answer cops' questions except in certain circumstances. Answering questions they have no right to have answered is not a good idea.

You have an obligation in our society to protect your rights. If you don't, they disappear. When a cop asks me for information that they are not entitled to, I respectfully decline to give it to them. Usually there is no big deal caused as a result. Sometimes (very rarely and usually only with a number of other factors figured in like what colour you are and how you speak and what type of vehicle you're driving) it means you get the crap beat out of you. Such is life.

But, to just roll over and give anyone in authority anything they ask for is cowardly and/or ill informed and erodes our collective rights. How often have you heard "if you have nothing to hide..."? If everyone just gave up, pretty soon, anyone who doesn't allow their house to be searched without warrant or whatever, might as well say "I'm guilty".

Depends on the questions. Don't incriminate yourself but at the same time refusing to answer questions simply because you don't have to likely won't expedite your road-side encounter.

 

[fastar1]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

I agree with Salos on this one. You don't have to answer cops' questions except in certain circumstances.

Agreed, also known as "you don't have to be cooperative".

Answering questions they have no right to have answered is not a good idea.

I can see the potential downside to revealing too much information, but there is also potential downside to being uncooperative. You have to weight the pros and the cons of each situation instead of being dogmatic about it.

You have an obligation in our society to protect your rights. If you don't, they disappear.

Exercising your rights is not always necessary to defend them. You have the right to run for office, the right to sue everybody, the right to carry a gun in your shower. Why aren't you constantly doing all these things to protect your rights?

When a cop asks me for information that they are not entitled to, I respectfully decline to give it to them. Usually there is no big deal caused as a result. Sometimes (very rarely and usually only with a number of other factors figured in like what colour you are and how you speak and what type of vehicle you're driving) it means you get the crap beat out of you. Such is life.

Hell, some people can be fully cooperative and still get the crap beat out of them. That's nothing to do with our discussion.

But, to just roll over and give anyone in authority anything they ask for is cowardly and/or ill informed and erodes our collective rights. How often have you heard "if you have nothing to hide..."? If everyone just gave up, pretty soon, anyone who doesn't allow their house to be searched without warrant or whatever, might as well say "I'm guilty".

This isn't quite the police state people like to make it out to be. Not yet anyways. If it gets to that point then most people will surely have something to hide from the cops, and for good reason not just out of "principle". If I were questionned in such an environment I would at least try to appear cooperative and even come up with a lie that might get me out of the situation. Since we aren't in that situation, I can try to be cooperative while also telling the truth. It's just a lot more convenient for me.

If they want to search my house without a warrant, I wouldn't just dismiss the request out of hand but they would have to be very frank with me about what they were doing and why a warrantless search could be justified at that time. Same thing if I'm pulled over and asked where I'm going. If I felt it were an invasive question I would let them know that, then offer them the option of explaining to me their need to know so I could decide if my information really could be beneficial to someone. Cops are just people, and they generally prefer to be treated as such.

 

[OpenGambit]

Re: Wonder why some folks distrust LEO's?

I strongly recommend against lying, even little white lies.

being silent can't get you in any legal trouble, but lying certainly can.
A cop catching you in a stupid lie can get PC or RS out of that.