latest on the new Safety Cert Drive On program...

[GreyGhost]

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That was one of my biggest concerns: Who is 'one the other end' of the submitted Cert to approve/reject? Are THEY a licensed tech or a 'no gray area' algorithm?!?!

This issue had nothing to do with driveon (and it was in a different province). In the past, a shop doing a paper safety could probably use professional judgement (although that would be a violation if caught) but with pics submitted mechanic has no option to argue that changes happened after the cert was issued.

 

[nobbie48]

A friend was having trouble getting a vehicle safetied as the stock brake system had been replaced. New brakes were six piston wilwood on rotors the size of the stock wheels all around but no abs so it couldn't pass. No brains were allowed. Check boxes only.

Houses not cars but in Nova Scotia you can only replace windows with top of the line big dollars stuff. It's OK to keep your drafty 50 year old single pane junk but you can't upgrade to a used five year old window your neighbour is chucking out due to a renovation. All or nothing.

I fear the number of usable older vehicles that will get scraped when a module is no longer available. State of the art is great when everyone has state of the art incomes.

 

[bitzz]

The inspection hasn't changed, the reporting of the inspection has changed. Everything has to be documented.
If your Deuce coupe would have passed a 'cert a year ago, your deuce coupe should pass a 'cert Apr.1.

If your deuce coupe would have passed a 'cert last year... with a wink and a nod from the certifying tech... that tech won't pass it because he has to take pictures of everything and upload those pics to the MOT mothership for further inspection (YEAH RIGHT!) later.

I have a '84 G body with the whole front suspension and brakes re-designed by ME. I am quite sure it would pass a 'cert no problem 'cuz no one will ever notice the change as I used all GM parts (from other GM cars and trucks) and it looks stock... AND (here's the important part) my shop(s) would go to bat for me IF it was questioned (as much as they could anyway)
If you got a sedan with a Mustang II steering rack ( a very popular swap), the tech can decide if the rack is safe. What the tech CAN'T decide is if the rack is safely attached to the frame it wasn't designed for, or if the steering column geometry is right (if didn't use the Mustang steering column).

A friend was having trouble getting a vehicle safetied as the stock brake system had been replaced. New brakes were six piston wilwood on rotors the size of the stock wheels all around but no abs so it couldn't pass. No brains were allowed. Check boxes only.

That one was easy. The problem was no ABS, not Wildwood. No ABS on an ABS equipped car is a HARD fail. It's a hard fail if the ABS, SRS or CEL light is on. It's a federal crime to modify it so the light doesn't come on when it should.

... but by the letter of the law: Wildwood IS a problem. The brakes the guy took off the car were DOT/MOT approved. No Wildwood product has any MOT/DOT approvals. Very few "aftermarket"parts have been inspected by MOT/DOT for road use... so you see "For off road/closed course use only on everything. 99.9% of aftermarket exhaust have no DOT/MOT certifications, so are illegal to run. Just like the Mustang rack in the sedan: that combination was never MOT/DOT approved, so technically no legal.

SO... IF you have a vehicle that is a mish mash of parts, that has an ownership, you can still get it certified, BUT you need a shop that is confident in their knowledge of the law, AND how to put a car/bike together... AND is willing to do certs (certs are a money losing proposition to a shop, the profit per hour is VERY low. It's a lot of work for not much money).
That combination is hard to find. One way is pay more. I expect to pay $300-360 for my next cert (still not enough).
There is a process outlined (in 2006?) on how to get a "hot rod" or home built certified in Ontario. AFIK no one has ever completed that process. The process is impossible in reality.
The mechanical side is pretty straight forward, the emissions side is a nightmare. Stick to pre '72 stuff: NO emission standards.

The only change I can see with bikes is they'll want a picture of the cat if the bike originally had a cat. So save those cats to sell your bike.

 

[TK4]

I wonder what will happen with older vehicles that don't have 17 digit VINs - will the system just spit them back out ?

 

[PrivatePilot]

You're not getting it. The number of shops that will be doing certs from now on is halved. And the price will be doubled or tripled. So good luck

Personally, I think all these "the sky is falling" claims are overblown. We heard screams from all the same places when requirements changed in the past, when drive clean was introduced, changed, and eventually cancelled. But shops will do what shops need to do to continue to earn money. If they need to *charge* more for the work, then whatever, they will. It'll cost the consumer some extra money.

But the fear that 50 or 75% of shops will stop doing safeties, meh, not gonna happen. There's big money to be made doing safeties - the labour doing the actual safety, one thing. Brakes, tie rods, ball joints, all that other stuff that typically causes cars to fail safety, that's bread and butter. And if a shop says they're not doing safeties anymore, people will just go somewhere else instead, and that other shop gets that gravy instead.

Lets all remember that you don't need to go to a motorcycle shop to get a motorcycle safetied, so it's not like just because your local MC shop decided to have a fit and refuse to do safeties anymore that you can't just go somewhere else. The mechanic doesn't even need a motorcycle licence as long as there's a parking lot big enough to get the bike up to 30kph, or heck, you can ride it and demonstrate the braking test - the only moving "riding" part of a safety. Most places don't even do that part of the test, "the bike stopped just fine when I pulled it into the shop" is sufficient.

Way too many people go full moron and make vehicles that are almost undriveable in the quest for a look.

"Stance", anyone?

 

[Lightcycle]

Lets all remember that you don't need to go to a motorcycle shop to get a motorcycle safetied, so it's not like just because your local MC shop decided to have a fit and refuse to do safeties anymore that you can't just go somewhere else.

100%

If Canadian Tire still does safeties, I'd take my bike there.

At least they won't fail you for tires because Canadian Tire doesn't sell motorcycle tires.

Any other motorcycle store, a safety cert means an instant tire sale for the shop.

 

[DonWiley]

I wonder what will happen with older vehicles that don't have 17 digit VINs - will the system just spit them back out ?

I made a post about that a bit back. As of now it seems like no grandfathered blue plates are making it through the digital safety. Which is pretty unfortunate for all the fully street legal conversions pre rule change in 2010 whatever it is. Hopefully that is fixed.

 

[Relax]

Personally, I think all these "the sky is falling" claims are overblown. We heard screams from all the same places when requirements changed in the past, when drive clean was introduced, changed, and eventually cancelled. But shops will do what shops need to do to continue to earn money. If they need to *charge* more for the work, then whatever, they will. It'll cost the consumer some extra money.

But the fear that 50 or 75% of shops will stop doing safeties, meh, not gonna happen. There's big money to be made doing safeties - the labour doing the actual safety, one thing. Brakes, tie rods, ball joints, all that other stuff that typically causes cars to fail safety, that's bread and butter. And if a shop says they're not doing safeties anymore, people will just go somewhere else instead, and that other shop gets that gravy instead.

I was going to post something very similar, but I do expect all the shops complaining and claiming they're not signing up for the new system to initially follow through - that is, until they realize how overblown it is when they invariably speak to other shops that forged ahead.

 

[xrljoel]

I was at my local garage picking up my Tacoma after some work and asked the tech about certifications.

He said that they're already on the new program, and it's a bit more expensive as it takes 2 people to complete the inspection on a car. I asked him about motorcycles as I've had them certify 4 or 5 bikes. Incidentally, all of those were performed as legitimate certifications, no letting anything slide etc. The tech told me he expects Tom will continue with all certifications including motorcycles.

I've been dealing with him since I moved to Port Hope, so about 20 years.

 

[adri]

I'm missing something. Why are fewer shops going to be doing safeties??

If I can continue providing a service I already offered, and now I can charge more for this service because it takes more time for every provider, how do I lose?

Or rather, if I can continue doing the service I already do anyway, and now I can charge more for it because it takes more time for every provider, why would I stop?

Me trying to figure out why shops will stop doing safeties:

 

[PrivatePilot]

Me trying to figure out why shops will stop doing safeties:

Like I said, it seems to be a “the sky is falling“ thing to me because something’s changing and some people don’t adjust well to change.

I bet if you do a count a year from now there are the same number of certification sites still out there, perhaps even more with new shops opening.

 

[GreyGhost]

I'm missing something. Why are fewer shops going to be doing safeties??

If I can continue providing a service I already offered, and now I can charge more for this service because it takes more time for every provider, how do I lose?

Or rather, if I can continue doing the service I already do anyway, and now I can charge more for it because it takes more time for every provider, why would I stop?

Me trying to figure out why shops will stop doing safeties:

I could see a shop that does few safeties already pulling out as the costs aren't worth it. That doesn't make a huge difference to the market though as they weren't doing many already. I can't see a dealer avoiding safeties no matter what it costs. Most shops probably fit in with your thoughts. It does drive up transactional costs and further erodes availability of "cheap" vehicles as cost to transfer ownership increases.

I still think douggie will require recurring safeties (maybe bi-annual?). That will be a ton of work. Shops that weren't in the program will probably come back into the fray at that point. Expensive safeties on trailer loads of bikes isn't bad winter work.

 

[TK4]

I'm missing something. Why are fewer shops going to be doing safeties??

The initial buy-in to the program and attendant higher continuing costs (extra insurance and manpower) may lead some shops to say 'why bother'.
A lot of stuff that most shops would have let slide (turn signal width, reflectors, licence plate placement, no chain guards, etc.) before ain't gonna happen.
Plus, there are going to be a lot of p*ssed off consumers when they find out the cost of a safety just doubled or tripled.

 

[GreyGhost]

Plus, there are going to be a lot of p*ssed off consumers when they find out the cost of a safety just doubled or tripled.

That's just the paperwork. When they have to pay to fix all the things found, that makes things worse.

 

[PrivatePilot]

I don’t think making safeties actually result in “safe” vehicles going on our roads is a bad thing.

That’s clearly the entire intent of this program is stopping fakes and half-assed safeties from happening to begin with.

 

[Brian P]

I don’t think making safeties actually result in “safe” vehicles going on our roads is a bad thing.

That’s clearly the entire intent of this program is stopping fakes and half-assed safeties from happening to begin with.

I'm more concerned with the overreaction - perfectly functional aftermarket parts being rejected because "they're not stock", and IF ... THEN ... enforcement of trivial matters that have no bearing on the vehicle being "safe" in the grand scheme of things. Lots of older bikes may become unsellable if, for example, original-equipment lights or mirrors or exhaust systems or whatever are unobtainium or stratospherically expensive. Or unrideable if this becomes a mandatory periodic inspection.

I am okay with "Is vehicle new enough to require turn signals? YES, Does vehicle have turn signals? YES, Do they work? YES" but not okay with "Are they the original manufacturer's part number (for a part that hasn't existed in 20 years)? NO"

 

[xrljoel]

The initial buy-in to the program and attendant higher continuing costs (extra insurance and manpower) may lead some shops to say 'why bother'.
A lot of stuff that most shops would have let slide (turn signal width, reflectors, licence plate placement, no chain guards, etc.) before ain't gonna happen.
Plus, there are going to be a lot of p*ssed off consumers when they find out the cost of a safety just doubled or tripled.

Further to your point, I think this identifies the issue in many cases; the retailer/consumer relationship is frequently a gigantic, unpleasant PITA.

In the case of certifications done in a small shop, it's often the owner who processes your payment and talks about the work. I wouldn't want to be standing at the counter telling buddy that his Gixer, slammed and stupid bagger, dirt bike, or rollin' coal bro-dozer can't be certified because yada-yada-yada, and you still owe me 2 hours of shop labor. That is one miserable and LONG day.

as such, small shop owner decides to hell with it. I can fill those few hours of inspection time with another handful of oil changes and avoid the hassle.

 

[Relax]

I could see a shop that does few safeties already pulling out as the costs aren't worth it. That doesn't make a huge difference to the market though as they weren't doing many already. I can't see a dealer avoiding safeties no matter what it costs. Most shops probably fit in with your thoughts. It does drive up transactional costs and further erodes availability of "cheap" vehicles as cost to transfer ownership increases.

I still think douggie will require recurring safeties (maybe bi-annual?). That will be a ton of work. Shops that weren't in the program will probably come back into the fray at that point. Expensive safeties on trailer loads of bikes isn't bad winter work.

If they're so small they don't do that many safeties, then they won't need more than one tablet/toolset. The first tablet is free for existing MVIS registrants, so the costs will really affect new applicants more than existing ones.

 

[xrljoel]

I don’t think making safeties actually result in “safe” vehicles going on our roads is a bad thing.

That’s clearly the entire intent of this program is stopping fakes and half-assed safeties from happening to begin with.

Agreed.

I've been watching Guild Garage (or something) on Crave recently, and I'm often floored by some of the vehicles that go driving around. Fenderless hotrods, oddball vintage cars, bizarre one-off bitsa builds and supremely expensive supercars all toolin' around with Ontario plates.

Does an Aston Martin supercar go to Transport Canada for emission testing and is that why it's so expensive because they have to submit and pay for it for each car they sell?

 

[Relax]

There's another angle to look at this - the evidence not only proves the vehicle is safe, but it also proves when they find something that isn't. The reason I prefer a certain mechanic for my safeties is because I know it's a one-time, same day visit and he won't hold me hostage by "finding" something that doesn't need to be addressed. With the new system, I actually feel better about bringing my bikes to any other shop knowing that they need to go on the record with photo evidence of anything out of spec.

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