I think that's the difference in today's "warfare". America was fighting Japan, not a group of Japanese within Japan.
June 6th 1944
- Thread starter dash8
- Start date
I think that's the difference in today's "warfare". America was fighting Japan, not a group of Japanese within Japan.
japanese didn't surrender after the first bomb so they had to drop a second one. Your silly idea wouldn't have worked. And remember the Japanese attacked first at Pearl Harbor and did kill civilians too.
Japanese didn't surrender because of the terms of surrender (absolute/unconditional which meant the emperor could be charged with war crimes and executed). Once the terms were changed (technically now a "conditional" surrender) to not touch the emperor they surrendered. If the allies did not change the terms it would have taken much more than two bombs.
The Russians entering the war was also a big factor, likely bigger than the bombs. As I noted before the atomic bombs or a full scale invasion were likely not required at all to force surrender, but may have been required for "other" reasons. If you dig into the history and not just read the good v evil grade school version it will come together...
If it's not on Fox News then Sonny is not going to be interested.
Fox News sucks so don't assume. You know what that does...
I think you are clinging on to a theory not necessarily the facts, either way the bombs caused the surrender and the end of the war no matter how you look at it. New thesis or not.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/
Actually it was a group within Japan. The Japanese military.
Civilians should never be engaged unless they pick up weapons and fight along side soldiers (making them combatants).
there is no excuse for the deliberate slaughter of a non combatant. It doesn't fall in the collateral damage catagory.
A military MUST take all reasonable actions to prevent or at the very least minimize the loss of human life or damage to property in conflict.
Soldiers fight soldiers. Otherwise it's just asymmetrical murder.
I don't want this to turn into a philosophical debate, but what if that bomb saved countless lives of US soldiers & civilians. Not to mention the Imperial Army have been very naughty when they conquered other countries. They raped & tortured countless civilians.
In hindsight, if that bomb hasn't been dropped, the war would've dragged on into another stalemate while the Imperial Army raped & plundered a few million more people
Red_Liner740
Well-known member
You fail to realize just how fanatical Japanese were. The distinction between military and civilians when it came to bushido was very minimal. The way of the Samurai was instilled in EVERYONE. In fact, an order from the military was seen as an order from the Emperor himself, a god.
Here's an excerpt
"This testimony by the military affairs director vividly conveys the reality of residents “shudanshi”. One can see that a military affairs director, who conveys the military order in an encirclement area, bore a crucial responsibility. Japanese citizens had been taught that a military order was “the emperor’s order”. There was also the aspect that people believed that “choosing death” rather than become POWs was “the way of imperial subjects”. They were, in accord with the instruction of local leaders and the imperial army, made to implement the field service code (senjinkun), which said “Do not live to receive the humiliation of becoming a prisoner”. - See more at: http://www.japanfocus.org/-Aniya-Masaaki/2629#sthash.tdCzBXQe.dpuf"
When the Japanese Military wields such power, to distinguish between the civilians and military is almost impossible.
When Okinawa was taken by the Allies, Thousands of civilians lept to their deaths off cliffs or held live grenades to their chests....if someone is willing to kill themselves to maintain their "honor", you think those same would not have picked up weapons and fought tooth and nail to defend the Emperor?
We can sit here and armchair quarterback all we want about how the two bombs MAY not have had to be dropped because MAYBE Japanese saw Russians coming or MAYBE the B29's were untouchable.
It was a Total War, the atrocities done on ALL sides must never be forgotten. Japanese indiscriminantly killed, raped and enslaved millions, waged a conquest of the Pacific and we're sitting here debating whether the Atom bombs were too much? LOL
Here's an excerpt
"This testimony by the military affairs director vividly conveys the reality of residents “shudanshi”. One can see that a military affairs director, who conveys the military order in an encirclement area, bore a crucial responsibility. Japanese citizens had been taught that a military order was “the emperor’s order”. There was also the aspect that people believed that “choosing death” rather than become POWs was “the way of imperial subjects”. They were, in accord with the instruction of local leaders and the imperial army, made to implement the field service code (senjinkun), which said “Do not live to receive the humiliation of becoming a prisoner”. - See more at: http://www.japanfocus.org/-Aniya-Masaaki/2629#sthash.tdCzBXQe.dpuf"
When the Japanese Military wields such power, to distinguish between the civilians and military is almost impossible.
When Okinawa was taken by the Allies, Thousands of civilians lept to their deaths off cliffs or held live grenades to their chests....if someone is willing to kill themselves to maintain their "honor", you think those same would not have picked up weapons and fought tooth and nail to defend the Emperor?
We can sit here and armchair quarterback all we want about how the two bombs MAY not have had to be dropped because MAYBE Japanese saw Russians coming or MAYBE the B29's were untouchable.
It was a Total War, the atrocities done on ALL sides must never be forgotten. Japanese indiscriminantly killed, raped and enslaved millions, waged a conquest of the Pacific and we're sitting here debating whether the Atom bombs were too much? LOL
You fail to realize how fanatical Americans are.
Or are you saying Americans wouldn't take up arms if they were invaded?
LOL OK
What exactly was Japan going to do with no Air power, no fleet and most of their military gone?
America decided to murder the civilian population with nuclear weapons. It's an atrocity that rivals the Jew death camps. Only difference is the Germans lost and the US was on the winning side.
Guess BMD was right. You have had that pumped into your heads in school so long you thing mass murder of a population is OK on one side but a war crime they have hunted everyone involved in until death on the other.
Soldiers are paid to die. Soldiers are paid to fight soldiers. They aren't paid to murder civilians unless those civilians enter the fight.
It's military ethics.
You follow your rules of engagement regardless of your enemies rules of engagement. Even if your enemy has none.
And here is how you determine between a civilian and a soldier.
Gun: Combatant.
Walking to school with a book bag: Non Combatant.
Kill em all let god sort em out
Mr.Azim
Well-known member
You know "all" includes you too. I'm sure you'll enjoy that as much as the next person.
"em" or "them" excludes him from the group. Just sayin.
Mr.Azim
Well-known member
So I guess it will just be him and his dominant hand in the world.
Him and all those he excludes from the group 'them'. If you want to interpret the expression accurately.
Mr.Azim
Well-known member
But he didn't exclude anyone. Unless that's explicitly stated... he's alone.
As per Kellen's post that is what the expression means.
When a linebacker yells 'kill em all' he is not including his team mates.
Red_Liner740
Well-known member
I love how you cherry pick a persons response and focus in on it.
Americans didnt choose to use the nukes as a first time use, they fire bombed dozens of cities previously, carpet bombing campaign has been ongoing since 1942 in Europe. Somehow, i dont think being vaporized by an atom bomb vs being burned alive by "conventional" bombs makes a difference to those who perish...in fact, i'd much rather get vaporized by a nuke than being burned alive in a city wide inferno.
And the question of "combatants", again, the vast majority of Japanese citizenry was ready to commit suicide, so sure, land your troops and with no air force, no sea power just see how many casualties the Allied troops were going to suffer.
Americans didnt choose to use the nukes as a first time use, they fire bombed dozens of cities previously, carpet bombing campaign has been ongoing since 1942 in Europe. Somehow, i dont think being vaporized by an atom bomb vs being burned alive by "conventional" bombs makes a difference to those who perish...in fact, i'd much rather get vaporized by a nuke than being burned alive in a city wide inferno.
And the question of "combatants", again, the vast majority of Japanese citizenry was ready to commit suicide, so sure, land your troops and with no air force, no sea power just see how many casualties the Allied troops were going to suffer.
Read this book "With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa" by Eugene Sledge and you will understand what war feels like. Best book about war, hands down.
