Is ramping illegal?

[油井緋色]

Ramping is so yesterday... roundabout is where the action is.

On a serious note, imho there's no need to be leaning off bike for normal street riding. If one cannot navigate an intersection without leaning off, honestly get off the road and re-evaluate the whole riding fundamentals.

You've made a statement, now back it up with a logical reason.

 

[hedo2002]

Watch it grasshopper one day YOU will become one of these "older Chinese people"...lol

I knew about the leaning off thing 2 years before taking any courses because I spent a winter season reading random motorcycle books. My problem is when someone is ignorant and immediately states something completely wrong without looking into the matter. Then somebody else comes along, reads it, passes the information, and the stupidity spreads. This is what's wrong with older Chinese folk btw lol

As for the leaning off thing, I'm really not doing it for attention. Leaning off the bike makes the bike more stable. This is why I lean off on intersection turns despite the bike being upright. It does have a place on the street because of the reduction in lean angle. This is especially true on ramps like 401 going West -> DVP or 401 going East -> 404 where there is a decreasing radius left turn; if it catches you by surprise, you have more lean angle to use. Some riders don't like being near the edge of the tire so even if you are taking those at the yellow speed limit, you would still use less lean angle. Also, you don't need to be knee dragging or on the edge of the tire to receive benefits from leaning off...in fact, my chicken strips are huge.

Just because the majority of riders ride crossed up (not counting dirt riders, I have no idea how those techiniques work) or up right, doesn't mean it's right or works well. That's like saying smoking is good for you when you're in Korea or Japan because a lot of ppl chain smoke there...the science says otherwise.

As for the hanging off HTA172 charge...I wonder what the original intention of the law was for. Wish we could get it changed.

 

[jc100]

You've made a statement, now back it up with a logical reason.

He doesn't need to....the vast majority of riders, many with more experience and skill than you, manage to ride every day on the street without having to hang off their bikes to a ridiculous degree to negotiate every turn....even ramps.

I'm pretty sure when you race cars round a track and take a car racing school they teach you quite a few new techniques....however practically none of those will be applicable to the street either under normal conditions.

Last thing...the only thing you should be practising on the street for...is driving or riding on the street. Not the track.

 

[油井緋色]

Ad homimen isnt an effective way to debate points. With that said, many riders I know who are faster than me do lean off every turn...even ramps

Some techniques, such as trail braking, don't apply on streets unless you're diving into a corner. Same goes for heel toe in a car. But other techniques such as throttle control through a turn using a RWD car are always applicable....Unless you like spinning out in winter.

Nobody said they were practicing for track on the street btw. There is no run off on ramps...only guardrails

 

[jc100]

Not ad hominem. Those with extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Since nearly all riders are capable of keeping up with traffic without resorting to hanging off their bikes (we are not talking about small weight shifts I take it) then you have to explain why you are incapable of the same. Unless of course this has nothing to do with keeping up with traffic...or the fact that this one time..at band camp....sorry track school.

 

[omnivore]

Go to a track.
Problem solved.......saved you a HTA172A....and a couple grand, because a cop can decide to charge you with stunting/racing anytime he pleases.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

He doesn't need to....the vast majority of riders, many with more experience and skill than you, manage to ride every day on the street without having to hang off their bikes to a ridiculous degree to negotiate every turn....even ramps.
*snip*
Last thing...the only thing you should be practising on the street for...is driving or riding on the street. Not the track.

It really depends on how you look at things...
Sure, you can ride on the street with never shifting your butt on the saddle even a fraction of an inch. You can do ramps, you can negotiate corners and all the other general aspects of riding.

You claim you should never do anything except practice driving on the street when you're on the street. Look at the Lee Parks Advanced Riding School...They're training you for street riding, but what's this? They're teaching people how to get off their bike and use their knees as a lean angle gauge? If shifting your weight and "hanging off" your bike has no place on the street why on earth would they even bother teaching it? Simple reason - to make you safer. If you're taking a turn at lets say 35 degree lean angle with butt firmly planted on seat, you'll be at 25 degrees (rough estimation, no factual science). Most sport bike tires lose traction beyond 45 degree angle. This leaves you with a 10 degree safety margin with butt on seat, and 20 degree safety margin with shifted weight. Personally, I'd rather have the extra 10 degrees for emergency maneuvers if necessary. 油井緋色 is completely correct - bikes are more stable when upright, so why not increase stability by shifting your weight?

If you have a higher skill set than most average joe blowhards from riding track or taking advanced riding schools, why not make use of those skills? I'm not saying race into corners and behave like a hooligan, but why not use those skills to make your riding experience even a tiny bit safer?

Most people I know who have ridden track for a couple seasons shift their butts around on their seats when taking turns on the street. They don't "hang off their bikes to a ridiculous degree".
In general, if you've got more than 1 butt cheek off the saddle you've moved too far, even on the track.

Looking forward to reading your rebuttal.

 

[hedo2002]

Not going to debate most of the points I could care less if another rider is dragging his knee at every turn and popping wheelies and other such activities. doesn't affect me, my wallet or my licence.

But one VERY valid point that you failed to take into account with your well reasoned argument about Lee Parks. Is Lee Parks wasn't operating in that fashion in a location which offered S172 as an option to the police.

I agree at times there "may" exist a set of circumstances that require "hanging off the bike", (using the phrase used by the poster), but it certinly isn't at an intersection in the GTA where the lean angle would be NO where near 25 or 35%, (unless the rider CHOSE to make it that extreme).

Again using the phrase offered up of "hanging off the bike" does not conjure up a vision of a "slight" shift in weight. Perhaps he used the wrong terminology.

It really depends on how you look at things...
Sure, you can ride on the street with never shifting your butt on the saddle even a fraction of an inch. You can do ramps, you can negotiate corners and all the other general aspects of riding.

You claim you should never do anything except practice driving on the street when you're on the street. Look at the Lee Parks Advanced Riding School...They're training you for street riding, but what's this? They're teaching people how to get off their bike and use their knees as a lean angle gauge? If shifting your weight and "hanging off" your bike has no place on the street why on earth would they even bother teaching it? Simple reason - to make you safer. If you're taking a turn at lets say 35 degree lean angle with butt firmly planted on seat, you'll be at 25 degrees (rough estimation, no factual science). Most sport bike tires lose traction beyond 45 degree angle. This leaves you with a 10 degree safety margin with butt on seat, and 20 degree safety margin with shifted weight. Personally, I'd rather have the extra 10 degrees for emergency maneuvers if necessary. 油井緋色 is completely correct - bikes are more stable when upright, so why not increase stability by shifting your weight?

If you have a higher skill set than most average joe blowhards from riding track or taking advanced riding schools, why not make use of those skills? I'm not saying race into corners and behave like a hooligan, but why not use those skills to make your riding experience even a tiny bit safer?

Most people I know who have ridden track for a couple seasons shift their butts around on their seats when taking turns on the street. They don't "hang off their bikes to a ridiculous degree".
In general, if you've got more than 1 butt cheek off the saddle you've moved too far, even on the track.

Looking forward to reading your rebuttal.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Not ad hominem. Those with extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Since nearly all riders are capable of keeping up with traffic without resorting to hanging off their bikes (we are not talking about small weight shifts I take it) then you have to explain why you are incapable of the same. Unless of course this has nothing to do with keeping up with traffic...or the fact that this one time..at band camp....sorry track school.

The problem is that once you've done enough track time, the riding style can become automatic. I'm pretty sure that I look silly getting my butt off the seat at 50 Kmh, in intersection left turn, but it has become the way that I ride.

 

[jc100]

No need for a rebuttal...I shift my weight on my bike too, pegs and ***, but I don't hang right off it. No need to (for me at normal traffic speeds) and I'm not unstable or holding traffic up either and neither are the vast majority of riders I see around me. I'd really like to take a Lee Parks course too but I very much doubt after that that I would be hanging right off my bike for every corner when riding on the street. Or am I incorrect on that?

I have twist of the wrist 1 and 2 and while they are interesting books I'm not looking for late braking markers on the street or the perfect racing line through a corner. Rather I'm wondering where the next pothole might be or if there's a dumb redneck in an F150 in my lane as I go round.

 

[jc100]

The problem is that once you've done enough track time, the riding style can become automatic. I'm pretty sure that I look silly getting my butt off the seat at 50 Kmh, in intersection left turn, but it has become the way that I ride.

I think this might all be a matter of degrees then (pun intended). I was under the impression that OP wanted to get his knee down around every corner.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I think this might all be a matter of degrees then (pun intended). I was under the impression that OP wanted to get his knee down around every corner.

Quite possibly. Want to get your knee down? Hang off the bike more. I'm slow on the track; best lap on Shannonville's Nelson track was low 1:10s on a FZR400, back when I did track days. My lousy lap times were still better than many on supersports, who went through a set of pucks by the end of the day.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

I think this might all be a matter of degrees then (pun intended). I was under the impression that OP wanted to get his knee down around every corner.

AH - I guess that's something he will have to clarify - a shift of weight or knee down all the time. A simple explanation of his thought process might render the vast majority of this thread completely moot.

As for the Lee Parks school and the HTA172.. Sure, they don't have to worry about getting charged during the school, but they still practice the more extreme side of street riding, simply to expand the students' skills and make them safer on the street.

 

[jc100]

AH - I guess that's something he will have to clarify - a shift of weight or knee down all the time. A simple explanation of his thought process might render the vast majority of this thread completely moot.

As for the Lee Parks school and the HTA172.. Sure, they don't have to worry about getting charged during the school, but they still practice the more extreme side of street riding, simply to expand the students' skills and make them safer on the street.

I'd like to do it for better slow manoeuvres, tighter U turns etc. Also to see what my bike (and myself) is capable of and therefore add a bit more confidence. I think the trick is gaining confidence and using it in a mature way though.

 

[油井緋色]

I don't knee drag in general, don't like the feeling. Feels similar to dragging pegs. And as previously stated, I have large chicken strips because I don't use extreme lean angles on the street. I do however shift my weight and stick my head, elbow, and knee out on all turns (except u-turns, then it's crossed up).

 

[hedo2002]

Perhaps this is where everything "got lost in translation". Questions from the OPs first post in this thread....

In addition, what about knee dragging/leaning off and what is the speed limit of the ramp itself? Is it illegal to have an exit speed of 3x the ramp exit but decelerate to traffic speed on merge?

I think the question was also flawed in that as has been determined beyond the apex of a ramp the defacto speed limit becomes that of the road one is about to merge onto so in the case of the 401 that would be 100, so 3X that would be 300 km/h..lol Or DVP, (which seems to be a favorite ramping area), it would be 270 km/h. Those aren't "normal riding speeds"...lmao

AH - I guess that's something he will have to clarify - a shift of weight or knee down all the time. A simple explanation of his thought process might render the vast majority of this thread completely moot.

As for the Lee Parks school and the HTA172.. Sure, they don't have to worry about getting charged during the school, but they still practice the more extreme side of street riding, simply to expand the students' skills and make them safer on the street.

 

[油井緋色]

Perhaps this is where everything "got lost in translation". Questions from the OPs first post in this thread....

In addition, what about knee dragging/leaning off and what is the speed limit of the ramp itself? Is it illegal to have an exit speed of 3x the ramp exit but decelerate to traffic speed on merge?

I think the question was also flawed in that as has been determined beyond the apex of a ramp the defacto speed limit becomes that of the road one is about to merge onto so in the case of the 401 that would be 100, so 3X that would be 300 km/h..lol Or DVP, (which seems to be a favorite ramping area), it would be 270 km/h. Those aren't "normal riding speeds"...lmao

I meant the caution speeds lol Exit speeds out of a 30 ramp, even without aggressive lean angles hit 90 easily.

The Lawrence loop is a different story because you merge back onto very bumpy local roads.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

I don't knee drag in general, don't like the feeling. Feels similar to dragging pegs.

UMMM.......
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Put the keys down. Step away from the motorcycle.

On that note, I'm hitting the nearest exit door...

 

[R6Yamii]

UMMM.......
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Put the keys down. Step away from the motorcycle.

On that note, I'm hitting the nearest exit door...

He must have metal kneecaps lucky guy.

 

[Baggsy]

I look at it, in that if I'm going fast enough that I lean off, or back it in, then I'm adding risk to my ride.

I like to be risk averse on the street.