Is ramping illegal?

[AF4iK]

If said kneedragging/leaning off will get your butt off the seat (not in it), they'll nail you for HTA 172
HTA 172, under Definition of Stunt 6. Driving a motor vehicle while the driver is not sitting in the driver’s seat.

Does "sitting" necessarily mean your butt must be on the seat cushion? When hanging off, your thigh is still in direct contact with the seat if not half your @$$. Besides, how could they prove your entire butt was off the seat? Even video would be hard pressed to tell unless you're dangling like MM93.

 

[conundrum]

I think the bigger question is why your butt is off the seat. There's no reason to need to do it within the speed limit, so I can see a cop having issues with this. It would be a different story if the limits were much higher, and you had to hang off in order to make the turn.

 

[conundrum]

Until something goes wrong, and then you could be looking at careless driving or worse being written up while they winch your wreck out of the grass or guard rail.

You might be missing my point -- If the ramp has a yellow sign that reads something like 30km/h, and you are merging onto the 401 which is 100km/h, you could do anywhere below 100km/h and not be breaking the law, speed-wise. That said, only take the ramp at a speed that works for you and whatever you are riding or driving, but my point is in the above, a cop couldn't hit you with 15 over if you were at 45km/h on the ramp.

As for the whole ramping thing -- I just don't get it. Whenever I witness people doing it, they are going well above the speed limit when they merge onto the highway, and are running the risk of having an altercation with a car once they merge. In my opinion, I'd save the semi-aggressive riding for empty roads up north, and any really aggressive riding (essentially anything that would require getting a knee down) for the track.

 

[nobbie48]

Does "sitting" necessarily mean your butt must be on the seat cushion? When hanging off, your thigh is still in direct contact with the seat if not half your @$$. Besides, how could they prove your entire butt was off the seat? Even video would be hard pressed to tell unless you're dangling like MM93.

HTA 172 is extremely vague so the LEO can use his imagination. You might beat it in court but that will be after your week suspension is done with and your bike seizure and assorted fees are dealt with by you. Tough luck if you drive for a living. Unless you can prove the cop was acting in malice there's no hope for compensation. Winning doesn't carry much satisfaction.

A cop told me that the speed limit was technically what was safe for the conditions with a maximum of what was posted. In other words in an ice storm you could get a speeding ticket for doing 90 kph on the 401 in an ice storm.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Keep in mind that if you're pushing the limits of your skill you then can fall under "operation without due care and attention" (Provincial Offences Act) or "Dangerous operation of a vehicle" (Criminal Code).

 

[油井緋色]

Keep in mind that if you're pushing the limits of your skill you then can fall under "operation without due care and attention" (Provincial Offences Act) or "Dangerous operation of a vehicle" (Criminal Code).

I'd like to believe no one is stupid enough to go above 75% on the street.

I think the bigger question is why your butt is off the seat. There's no reason to need to do it within the speed limit, so I can see a cop having issues with this. It would be a different story if the limits were much higher, and you had to hang off in order to make the turn.

Go read Twist of the Wrist 2. If you're too lazy, center of gravity moves, bike stays more upright and therefore more stable. I will hang off on intersections even though the bike is completely up right. Plus, it allows practicing of body position for when you actually want to use it (the track).

 

[apextech]

Sorry. You're just asking for trouble if you're hanging off your seat at double the speed on any ramp.

 

[griff2]

I'd like to believe no one is stupid enough to go above 75% on the street.

Really? Then how come almost half of motorcycle crashes are single vehicle crashes and almost half of the remainder are motorcycle-at-fault crashes?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I'd like to believe no one is stupid enough to go above 75% on the street.

If you crash, you've gone over 75%. If the situation changes, then 75% might have just become 125%. That's the street.

 

[Brian P]

Don't forget that there's a big difference between 75% of what the vehicle can do, and 75% of what the operator can do.

Fast car/bike, slow driver/rider who doesn't know their limits is a problem.

Most of the single vehicle "bike run off road" crashes don't actually involve reaching the limits of traction of the tires (until the rider is already off road because of what I'm going to describe next). In most cases, the rider freaks out at thinking they are going too fast, or doesn't understand and implement the concept of "you go where you look", and simply fails to steer the bike through the corner.

I've never touched a knee down on the street. On the track ... every lap, when things are working as they should. (Right knee only thanks to a slightly messed up left hip, but that's another matter ...)

 

[油井緋色]

Really? Then how come almost about of motorcycle crashes are single vehicle crashes and almost half of the remainder are motorcycle-at-fault crashes?

There is a difference between trying to push limits and accidentally doing it.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Most of the single vehicle "bike run off road" crashes don't actually involve reaching the limits of traction of the tires (until the rider is already off road because of what I'm going to describe next). In most cases, the rider freaks out at thinking they are going too fast, or doesn't understand and implement the concept of "you go where you look", and simply fails to steer the bike through the corner.

Back in the TARA days we referred to that as "failure to turn."

 

[Brian P]

Seen / dealt with a few of those over the years ...

 

[kiwi]

And last weekend I saw a k1600 knee dragging at parking lot speed in the rain (in a closed course) so no, you don't have to be doing above the speed limit to knee drag on the street.

 

[油井緋色]

Sorry. You're just asking for trouble if you're hanging off your seat at double the speed on any ramp.

Err....if you're double the suggested ramp speed and hanging off, you wouldn't be anywhere near the edge of the tire. You'd likely have an inch or more left of "chicken strips".

Even some riders have no clue wtf they're talking about...this makes me a little sad.

 

[hedo2002]

Well firstly, MOST riders haven't taken the courses you have, so to condemn them for this is a little condesending. Why do you fell the "need to prcatice dragging your knee on the street? That is what the track is for. Yes you contend that you get off the seat even on mild intersection turning to "keep the bike more upright" While this is a sound theoretical principle it simply is not something that is needed. Millions of other riders, (worldwide), seem to manage these types of turns without the need to get off the seat and lean.

You do it, I suspect as you think it looks cool and shows off the skills, (kudos for you for taking the courses), that you have learned.But I bet if you asked ten cagers how they viewed it, all would say it looks ridiculous and paints riders in a negative light. You have stated before that it has caused you to be stopped at least once, not sure why a rider would purposely wish to draw the unnecessary attention to themselves.

There are places that these skills are best suited, but the street isn't one of them.

To answer one of the other posters. A copper likely isn't measuring your speed on a ramp, which is why I suggested they may go for the not in the seat option of 172. When it came to trial the defence would be remiss if they didn't ask the officer what the bikes speed was, (if that was used as the foundation of the charge). The officer would have no concrete answer. But if he used not in the seat option pretty easy to testify honestly as to what he observed. As for the whole I had a thigh on the seat, that wouldn't fly to a JP. Try sitting in the passenger seat of your car with your leg in the drivers seat and drive that way see how long it would be before you were stopped.

A JP, (remember they have no formal legal training), is likely to interpret the wording of "not in seat" to mean that your butt, was not "in" the seat, meaning not in the "normal" seated position.

Bottom line there is NO section that prohibits "ramping" in the HTA, but is it wise? can you catch a charge for doing it? No it isn't advisable, and yes if determined an officer will find a charge to lay, if they are so inclined. Yes you may win in the end, But if it was 172 your out the costs and the 7 day impound and suspension. If it is another charge you still have the time and effort to challenge the charge without a known outcome.

Just as 172 was created to "solve" a percieved issue. If "ramping" is seen to be an increasing issue then a law will be created to address that issue as well. It is the way of the Gov't in Ontario.

Err....if you're double the suggested ramp speed and hanging off, you wouldn't be anywhere near the edge of the tire. You'd likely have an inch or more left of "chicken strips".

Even some riders have no clue wtf they're talking about...this makes me a little sad.

 

[Baggsy]

All you need is a little diesel oil, or backed up traffic to spoil your day.

Falling off is illegal, since you're no longer controlling your vehicle.

Lots of people fall off every day, some of which are much better riders than you are.

 

[油井緋色]

Well firstly, MOST riders haven't taken the courses you have, so to condemn them for this is a little condesending. Why do you fell the "need to prcatice dragging your knee on the street? That is what the track is for. Yes you contend that you get off the seat even on mild intersection turning to "keep the bike more upright" While this is a sound theoretical principle it simply is not something that is needed. Millions of other riders, (worldwide), seem to manage these types of turns without the need to get off the seat and lean.

You do it, I suspect as you think it looks cool and shows off the skills, (kudos for you for taking the courses), that you have learned.But I bet if you asked ten cagers how they viewed it, all would say it looks ridiculous and paints riders in a negative light. You have stated before that it has caused you to be stopped at least once, not sure why a rider would purposely wish to draw the unnecessary attention to themselves.

I knew about the leaning off thing 2 years before taking any courses because I spent a winter season reading random motorcycle books. My problem is when someone is ignorant and immediately states something completely wrong without looking into the matter. Then somebody else comes along, reads it, passes the information, and the stupidity spreads. This is what's wrong with older Chinese folk btw lol

As for the leaning off thing, I'm really not doing it for attention. Leaning off the bike makes the bike more stable. This is why I lean off on intersection turns despite the bike being upright. It does have a place on the street because of the reduction in lean angle. This is especially true on ramps like 401 going West -> DVP or 401 going East -> 404 where there is a decreasing radius left turn; if it catches you by surprise, you have more lean angle to use. Some riders don't like being near the edge of the tire so even if you are taking those at the yellow speed limit, you would still use less lean angle. Also, you don't need to be knee dragging or on the edge of the tire to receive benefits from leaning off...in fact, my chicken strips are huge.

Just because the majority of riders ride crossed up (not counting dirt riders, I have no idea how those techiniques work) or up right, doesn't mean it's right or works well. That's like saying smoking is good for you when you're in Korea or Japan because a lot of ppl chain smoke there...the science says otherwise.

As for the hanging off HTA172 charge...I wonder what the original intention of the law was for. Wish we could get it changed.

 

[Roomie]

Bottom line there is NO section that prohibits "ramping" in the HTA, but is it wise? can you catch a charge for doing it? No it isn't advisable, and yes if determined an officer will find a charge to lay, if they are so inclined. Yes you may win in the end, But if it was 172 your out the costs and the 7 day impound and suspension. If it is another charge you still have the time and effort to challenge the charge without a known outcome.

While I think doing these ramps is utterly stupid and unimpressive, the fact that a police officer can lay a 172 for this is also on the list of why people run. That charge itself is completely ridiculous. You may win in the end but because a cop got to play roadside judge you're out a fair chunk of cash anyways. I don't see anything wrong there.... errrrr wait. Guilty until proven innocent. This is why you see plates hiding in the tail of a bike and why these guys (no one specifically here just generalizing) will run should a cop pursue them. That circle is just going to keep going around until the law is amended or abolished. I don't know how politicians and police don't see that.

As for "ramping" go take it to the track. Even to other riders it's stupid, dangerous and a negative to the sport and the attention it receives.

 

[EC2010]

Ramping is so yesterday... roundabout is where the action is.

On a serious note, imho there's no need to be leaning off bike for normal street riding. If one cannot navigate an intersection without leaning off, honestly get off the road and re-evaluate the whole riding fundamentals.