Is it necessary to be mean to succeed at work?

[油井緋色]

You are an adult. You screw up I'm not gonna be fluffy about your lack of ability or aptitude.

Asked you to do a job knob. Qualified and competent? Then tell me why you didn't do it.

Don't mind me if I think you are an idiot for not doing your job. You work for me and suck it up princes

I'm not mean I tell you that you sucked at that task. You took the job so do it!

Don't know if you are serious meme, but I've ripped apart multiple managers who tried the above on me then got a raise lol What you said is actually a great example of someone making too many assumptions (if the accused is competent.)

But that's another "why do we need to be jackasses to succeed" example; fighting fire with water with the intention to drown the opposition because putting out the fire doesn't do ****, it just reignites.

 

[Deleted member 50930]

This is not what we are talking about man lol

EDIT: Also, don't know if you are serious meme, but I've ripped apart multiple managers who tried the above on me then got a raise lol But that's another "why do we need to be jackasses to succeed" example; fighting fire with water with the intention to drown the opposition because putting out the fire doesn't do ****, it just reignites.

I think you maybe too Bruteforce

 

[油井緋色]

I think you maybe too Bruteforce

I honestly think so too, hence the topic lmao

 

[Baggsy]

Not sure I met anyone that coded, that was like that.
Maybe one, but he went into project management very quickly.

 

[Ash]

Not sure I met anyone that coded, that was like that.
Maybe one, but he went into project management very quickly.

You know, that's a really good point. My experience has deeply shaped my opinions about the industry and about people in general, but the truth is that this was a single person in my entire career that acted this way. The other hundreds of people I've interacted closely with have not had the same psychological profile.

I do think it is very workplace-specific though. If anyone in the management/leadership/boss chain tolerates this kind of behaviour, (or worse, displays it themselves), then it will become the dominate behaviour throughout the workplace.

 

[crankcall]

Don't know if you are serious meme, but I've ripped apart multiple managers who tried the above on me then got a raise lol



I love these phyco babble big thinker conversations . If your actually the smartest guy in the room , why do you keep having conversations with managers? Why arent you running the show? why aren't you running your own show??

 

[油井緋色]

Not sure I met anyone that coded, that was like that.
Maybe one, but he went into project management very quickly.

It's the minority for sure.

There's been one or two at every company I've been at.

Perhaps the way you carry yourself automatically deflects said types.

Or maybe it's ******* racism lol because that's the other pattern I noticed but don't want to dive into.

@crankcall I've turned down management promotions multiple times. I enjoy software development, I specifically got into it to solve big brain problems and avoid people ****. Also the pay hike isn't worth it because of the leadership principles I'd be operating under which I'm certain are different than yours from the past threads where I've touched this subject.

I'm aware the above contributes to people less qualified than me getting promoted, which is the ****** side of the coin. Also, nothing in this thread is about anyone being smarter than another. Some of these guys are being ***** are actually smarter than me lol

 

[justride]

I don't think being mean is going to help your career. People/worker have long memories and will not going to anything extra/favours and few might screw you over/retaliate later.

 

[Ash]

I love these phyco babble big thinker conversations . If your actually the smartest guy in the room , why do you keep having conversations with managers? Why arent you running the show? why aren't you running your own show??

Because being a manager, or running your own business, are completely different jobs than the ones that we are good at and actually enjoy. To pick a non-software analogy: I enjoy wrenching on my bike, so maybe I could be a mechanic. But I would absolutely not enjoy owning a motorcycle dealership, and I would probably suck at it because it's nothing like the career that I chose, and it uses a completely different set of skills than I've built over my working lifetime.

 

[油井緋色]

Because being a manager, or running your own business, are completely different jobs than the ones that we are good at and actually enjoy. To pick a non-software analogy: I enjoy wrenching on my bike, so maybe I could be a mechanic. But I would absolutely not enjoy owning a motorcycle dealership, and I would probably suck at it because it's nothing like the career that I chose, and it uses a completely different set of skills than I've built over my working lifetime.

I think crankcall may have the last gen mentality where climbing up the corporate ladder was the only goal and grunt work is something they look down on (this is the impression I get, I could be very wrong.)

The whole "I like where I'm at because I am good at it" is a new trend probably related to the "flat structure" I'm seeing at many companies.

 

[Ash]

It's probably also relevant whether you're coming from an industry of knowledge workers or not. In a lot of traditional industries, the technical work is the drudgery that you want to escape, and promotions/salary/titles are where the prestige comes from. In knowledge workers, the prestige is inverted: it comes from what you are working on.

I'm fortunate enough in my company that we have independent tracks for promotion. One track for technical workers, and a separate track for non-technical/managers, and the pay is equivalent for each. You aren't forced to eventually jump into management because you've topped out the technical path.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Read surrounded by idiots you will se the 4 types of people and how they work and how to deal with them. These sound like what are called Red personality effective, but quick to anger and think they can do it better than anyone.

 

[Superveloce]

The unfortunate thing is that the general public wants to be treated mean even if they don’t realize it. The classic example is, you work at a company that treats you really well and you think, gee it’s really good here it must be better somewhere else I’m gonna look for a job elsewhere.
The opposite side of that is you treat an employee horribly and many of them will think, it’s bad here but if I leave it could be even worse somewhere else, better the devil you know. It’s unfortunate but I have seen this multiple times with a few of our employees. They try to leave and go elsewhere thinking it must be even better than where they are now and 95% of them try to come back to their old job within a few weeks or months. Human nature is to gravitate towards the person who treats you like crap and treat like crap the person who is good to you unfortunately.

 

[crankcall]

Your right , i am last generation mentality. I spent a few years as a grunt, I don't look down on them, they are the people doing the day to day work that keeps the company running. I need them to do that, they need me so they have a place to do that.
I never liked climbing the corporate ladder so i bought into it. I was a horrible employee, so I'm not an employee.

 

[BB722]

being mean should be like a tool at your disposal that you got complete control and awareness of and sometimes you gotta use it when dealing with ******* , like what's the other option? just be harmless and keep taking those blows?

 

[Chris-CJ]

This topic/thread brings out the advantage of contracting out your service. Just go in, do the job and get out. No jockeying for corporate positions.

 

[mimico_polak]

I personally don't think you have to be mean, or an ass, to make it in your career. But you sure as hell can't just sit there and be a pushover.

Sure some careers require more brash personality types, but I've seen those slowly fading away. Perfect example is construction. The old school foreman/super is going away slowly and they're being replacement by younger, gentler, and for all intents and purposes better generation.

I've really not had a single 'mean' boss in my life. Sure I've had some fools, but none that were genuinely mean, or hurtful in any way. I've actually been extremely lucky in my career and look forward to what's next.

If you do encounter it directed at you, my way of dealing with the fools was just to walk away mid sentence when they were still talking. Usually would be a conversation that went like this:
- why are you walking away?
- because you're clearly not listening.
- but sure I am
- no, I've tried to explain something to you and you're too busy trying to get your way in, so it's not worth the effort

Obviously these discussions are private and I never bring it out into the public eye, because my field, construction, is a very small world. And frankly, I'm fortunate enough that I ended up working for a boss now, that I worked for as a junior about 8 years ago.

In our world when we deal with the mean ones (colleagues, not bosses in my case) they typically don't last long. A negative workplace is very unproductive, and the bad apples are typically put into another team, or simply let go. Companies are doing everything possible to prevent negative PR, lawsuits, sexual harassment issues, bullying allegations, or any negative things that could see the light of day. It's bad for business. In my world anyway. Obviously each industry / sector are different.

 

[Mad Mike]

Topic question, and a serious one. I'm honestly asking here to sanity check.

I am certain everyone that's worked a job has encountered the ******* archetype. The key traits are:

• Lack of patience
• Poor mentorship abilities
  • Dead give away is repeating the same instructions when someone doesn't get it, then insulting them instead of switching angles
• Poor leadership abilities (this does not mean they can't be in management)
• Berates and demeans others with different opinions
• Dismisses suggestions, even when they are valid, and does not have enough confidence to admit when they are blatantly wrong

The above traits when applied to an bad worker results in termination very quickly. But these traits can occur with someone who is highly driven and competent. A highly driven and competent ******* is the archetype I'm referring to. These stereotypes sometimes know others are scared of them and get a powertrip.

Despite my dislike for ********, I tend to get to know these characters very well. There is often something very wrong with their lives. Examples I've found:

• Guy cheated on wife. Wife knows. Popped a kid after. Guy had to take a pic with me to prove to his wife we were out at dinner.
• Dude is high 24/7. Dude takes multiple bong hits during work. Dude has never had a girl friend and is nearing 30. Something something have to support parents, something something

How have you guys dealt with these?

I find being nice doesn't work. Allowing the repeated blows (either direct insults like "are you retarded?" or inflection of voice) sends an "it's okay, keep doing it" message. Instead, I've had to justify and guilt trip with a very cold inflection (aka "I just want all the information now so I do not bother you later; I am being respectful of your time.") This usually works, worst case scenario has forced me to say "listen, I had an odd childhood where I was berated 24/7. What you are doing is triggering flash backs. I know you're not trying to incite rage in me, so lets stop."

With either tactic, the hidden message behind either response is actually "I'm ready to throw down, **** off."

So with that said, what are your tactics? I'm genuinely curious if anyone has actually thrown psychoanalyses at their colleagues (even if it leads to a mental breakdown from the ******* lol)

TL;DR: The best way I've found to deal with ******** is to be an ******* myself. Are there better ways? We become what we do after all.

I've led some pretty big development teams and have dealt with all sorts of stereotypes. Here's a few decades of observations:

1) Very few people have natural leadership capabilities -- it's something you learn in school and practice and refine over time on the job. Sadly there is zero leadership training for most developers, so unless they have an MBA finding a good one as a leader is like winning a lottery.

2) The most solid and valuable developers I have managed never found themselves in the doldrums for long under incompetent bosses or toxic workplaces -- they had their own record, were professionally networked so they called their own shots... if they didn't like the work environment, they just moved along.

3) Tech is full of very smart people that are not very productive when left alone. Many have a much higher perception of themselves than the surrounding cast and don't realize how easily they can be replaced. Bosses are not always as dumb as you may think, even the dumbest boss can figure out dependability, loyalty and **** disturbers. people and the easily replaced.

Advice. If you feel the boss or environment is bad or toxic, rise above it and leave -- life is short -- don't waste your valuable time trying how to exist in a cesspool. Jobs for competent developers are hanging on trees these days, polish your resume and take a step into something that suits you.

 

[jc100]

Mean people don’t last long. There’s always someone meaner that will come along and **** up their day at some point.

Firm, fair and respected work better than authoritarianism.

Also someone mentioned MBAs. I ******* detest the MBA types I’ve met. The meetings have gone like this:

”Hey, do you have a great idea that I can take and use as my own and in return I’ll give you a 6 font acknowledgement on page 1003 of the business proposal I need to write because I’m actually void of ideas and all I’m capable of is using other people as a way of making myself look like a bigshot entrepreneur type?”

 

[Mina]

Interesting topic. Didn't read the full post, but if your TLDR sums it up right, here's what I suggest.

If someone is treating you poorly, you have to have an honest look at yourself first. Maybe you're rubbing this person the wrong way without even realizing it. People are different, and everyone will act differently when they're under pressure/stress.

By mirroring their behavior and attitude, you've already lost. You allowed them to bring you down to their level when you should always hold yourself to a higher standard.

Be the bigger person, display empathy, forgive and treat them nicely even when/if they're treating you poorly. Eventually, they'll come around. Cooler heads always prevail and if you're in a position to be a leader (always pretend like you are even if you're not) you will quickly earn the respect of your peers and they will see you under a different light.

This is what I've learned being in sales and dealing with all races, age groups, education levels, etc over the last 14 years.
This is how I choose to conduct myself and I refuse to let anyone bring me to their level no matter what's at stake.

Be firm, be kind, be fair and people will feel it.
That being said, some people really need a rude awakening every once in a while but those are few and far between.

Everyone is carrying something you know nothing about, if you genuinely feel like you're not doing anything wrong, then their behavior towards you is a reflection of their inner battles and has nothing or little to do with you.

You can also always treat them to coffee/lunch and have a brief chat about the issue. A small gesture can go a very long way.

One last piece of advice: control your emotions and maintain your cool no matter how upset you are and you'll be able to control any conversation you engage in.