You are saying it, like this concept is a novelty in our society. Perhaps you are suggesting the utilities should be called profit neutral, by law?
Hydro bill
- Thread starter LiNK666
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You are saying it, like this concept is a novelty in our society. Perhaps you are suggesting the utilities should be called profit neutral, by law?
You want to hear a secret?
Those smart meters were not meant to protect us, in fact they robbed us.
Those who have ABSOLUTE trust in the government needs special help.
Yes, there is certainly waste in the system and we need to keep on them to do better. But this government should be recognized as having the perseverance to phase out coal power in this province. That was a huge achievement and it took a lot of forward thinking not normally seen in politicians. I remember growing up in the 80's and having between 30 and 60 smog days each and every summer. The air was gross. It was yellow and brown and sometimes looked like it was cloudy, even when it was clear (the weather channel always called it hazy). Do you know how many smog days we had this year? 1. Last year? 1. 2015? 1. That's worth paying a little more in my book.
Trials
Well-known member
I think you will find it's about to go up again. Very tragic accident, I've been watching these same guys working close to where I live for the last couple of weeks, scared the heck out of me just to watch. Condolences to all involved.
[video=youtube_share;3md8Tx9GkNA]https://youtu.be/3md8Tx9GkNA[/video]
[video=youtube_share;3md8Tx9GkNA]https://youtu.be/3md8Tx9GkNA[/video]
I agree, and touched on that in my reply, but there IS a bigger picture, that aside.
They too have delivery fees and tiers. You have to look at the bigger picture - here's a California energy bill for example - it suddenly doesn't look so rosy when you see that the quoted rate you listed is the base or off-peak rate. Then there's all the others, right up to 33c/kwh. And they too have all sorts of other fees just like us.
So, those 1200kwh cost $290. And that was in 2012 - doubt it's gone down any.....
Comparatively, last month we used 1039Kwh (most of it off-peak, and only 150kw less than that California bill above) and our bill was $147.
I'm not complaining especially when you remember the whole CDN$ vs USD$ thing as well. That California bill would be $369CAD.
Disagree. To the contrary our bill went down quite significantly when they were introduced because we catered our heavy usage to off peak periods. It's simple - use electricity when it's cheap.
In the old tier system where the more you use the higher the rates you start to pay we would probably be paying close to $250/month because we used to quickly blow right through the "cheap" rate level, into the moderate level, and in the summer during AC/Pool season we would be into peak tiers sometimes half way through the month. NO incentive to shift usage then anymore.
Now, all month long, I know after 7PM our electricity is under 7c/kwh, and we milk that to the extreme and save because of it - very signifigantly. On a typical night at 7PM the dishwasher starts, both EV's start charging, the washer and dryer get started, and in the summer the pool pump fires up and starts it's nightly water turnover cycle. All of these heavy loads are completed inside the off-peak electricity period. It's not hard.
Here's a shot of our last years worth of usage from the HydroOne website. It's clear we benefit from off-peak usage. On a related note, who can pick out what month we purchased our EV?
Was the Time Of Use meter rollout botched? Yeah, for sure...and that's part of the bigger picture of why our rates have gone up, but TOU meters do give us all an opportunity to save still with a little bit of lifestyle adjustment.
There was a brief period where the incentive to actually use off-peak rates became muddled when the off-peak rates came close to matching the higher tiers, but now the spread is much bigger (off peak actually went DOWN at the last rate adjustment) and the incentive is certainly there again.
I cannot quite understand why anyone would object peak and off-peak rates ... clearly the off-peak costs you significantly less, for a reason. But .... to implement that you need the damn meters, otherwise how exactly would you want to achieve the metering???
As stated before, yes the government botched the launch and implementation, but without them we would all surely pay a lot more.
As stated before, yes the government botched the launch and implementation, but without them we would all surely pay a lot more.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-fraser-institute-study-1.4212668
I fully understand why a delivery charge is needed. However I don't have the accounting abilities or security clearances to see if it is fair. Legal and fair have totally different meanings.
Properly applied the delivery fee wakes people up to the realities of how businesses must work to stay in the black.
The old all in one hydro rate was a bit like Canada Post. It costs $0.85 to mail a letter whether it is to your next door neighbour or your cousin in B.C. There was a built in social factor. In the private sector social factors get weeded out fast.
What I question is the "fair" bit. Why does a province like Manitoba, with fewer people to share the distribution costs, have rates far lower?
An interesting conundrum was going on in Hawaii and I don't know if it has been resolved.
Due to the sun, moderate climate and tropical breezes so many people have gone off the grid that the per user distribution costs are getting out of hand. It appears that governments can only manipulate reality for so long.
"Trust me. I'm from the government." has come to mean immanent disaster.
I fully understand why a delivery charge is needed. However I don't have the accounting abilities or security clearances to see if it is fair. Legal and fair have totally different meanings.
Properly applied the delivery fee wakes people up to the realities of how businesses must work to stay in the black.
The old all in one hydro rate was a bit like Canada Post. It costs $0.85 to mail a letter whether it is to your next door neighbour or your cousin in B.C. There was a built in social factor. In the private sector social factors get weeded out fast.
What I question is the "fair" bit. Why does a province like Manitoba, with fewer people to share the distribution costs, have rates far lower?
An interesting conundrum was going on in Hawaii and I don't know if it has been resolved.
Due to the sun, moderate climate and tropical breezes so many people have gone off the grid that the per user distribution costs are getting out of hand. It appears that governments can only manipulate reality for so long.
"Trust me. I'm from the government." has come to mean immanent disaster.
There's true off the grid (which is still very rare) and there's off the grid, except when I need the grid (which is a lot more frequent) .... only certain geographical locations and scenarios are feasible and affordable now or in the near future. Most of us in Canada need the grid and will always need some form of it. Period.
Perhaps in few decades some of us will have some sort of Powerwall + panels, but more likely is that the utilities will have solar/wind farms + storage and will keep selling us the same power, just hopefully cleaner and cheaper (although that might easily not be the case).
Perhaps in few decades some of us will have some sort of Powerwall + panels, but more likely is that the utilities will have solar/wind farms + storage and will keep selling us the same power, just hopefully cleaner and cheaper (although that might easily not be the case).
Manitoba hydro has a lot of smaller generation sites, dams and rivers, its different from Ontario so I'm told, and seems to more focused on providing power than sponsoring the blue jays.
I wonder about the revolving door of reality with Ontario, what gets done with a 300ft high fliberglass wind fan at the end of its life? Make really funky apartments for the rural hipsters?
I wonder about the revolving door of reality with Ontario, what gets done with a 300ft high fliberglass wind fan at the end of its life? Make really funky apartments for the rural hipsters?
Sir Adam Beck had a vison to place Ontarians into an industrial and competitive environment by supplying low cost electricity to Ontarians and potential new industry. Mission accomplished. Ontario became the industrial heartland of Canada. The 'great generation' built just about everything we enjoy today (every thing from the first nuclear power plants to water treatment plants etc.) When I started working in the electrical generation industry about 30 years ago, there was the '25 year plan'. The economy and industry was supposed to skyrocket. A few recessions later, and the 25 year plan fell apart. Part of said plan was to build many more nuclear generation stations. It's laughable now but there was supposed to be a Bruce "C", "D" and Darlington "B","C" and maybe "D" (some of these may have been slated for coal in lieu of nuclear). Anyway, they overestimated the requirement for generation and Ontario Hydro over planned and overspent resulting in $35,000,000,000 debt (hence the debt repayment). The recessions and loss of industry (China and Mexico...) resulted in an excess in hydro generation supply. Coal plant are now shut down and we are going to decommission Pickering in 2024 and refurbish Darlington and the Bruce site to take us forward for the next 30 years. The transmission side of the house is a mess. There was virtually no money spent on the lines/towers in the last 30 or so years. Huge investment is now required in that regard. With renewables coming on line and making due with existing
Dammed sensitive key board lol.
With renewables coming on line and making due with existing
nuclear and hydraulic, we are in a new norm. I don't see this industry getting any bigger or expanding as the demand just is not there anymore. Once nuclear refurbishment, hydraulic optimization and the transmission update is complete, there should be no further large scale projects for the foreseeable future. Hopefully then the costs will stabilize and become affordable. Of course politicians can throw a wrench into the best of plans but I don't see this as getting any worse in the long term at least.
Indeed, and I think a lot of people don't understand that. Past governments were so focused on keeping electricity artificially cheaper than it should have been at the expense of actually maintaining the system.
Worked great for those 20 years or whatnot, I guess. Now, we're starting to pay for it, and the pain hurts more than if we'd just paid what we should have for those 20 years.
But, as per my earlier post, in the grand scheme of things, our electricity rates are not as insane as some would think. Sure, we could be like the USA and fire up a bunch of coal plants and have cheap electricity again, but personally, I don't miss seeing the Toronto skyline looking like this.
Looks like with the current administration they're going backwards on that whole ball of wax.. Perhaps when their cities start to look like China (thick enough to cut with a knife) they'll wake up.
Yes, very informative.
Regarding the debt, imagine your kid running up a massive debt. You have a talk with him / her, set a plan, jointly cough up the coin to pay things off so life can become reasonably normal again. Everyone has learned their lesson.
Ontarians are in the kid's boat and it would be nice to think that we could suck it up, use austerity, fast track the debt payoff and become normal. Unfortunately I don't trust the politicians to follow through with continued austerity and realistic fiscal control.
A buddy's son got himself behind the financial eight ball and dad helped him get straightened out with a loan under the condition the son and son's wife stop buying stuff. All is good for a month and then they notice a new stereo at the son's place. "We didn't buy it. We leased it." Our governments have the same mentality.
Austerity is the only way out of debt but you can't buy votes with austerity. Austerity isn't working in Greece as they just had another protest strike.
It's every man for himself.
I will also say this .... It used to be relatively easy to lay out 30 or 50 year plans, because Science was advancing pretty slowly back in a day. What used to take a century took only a couple of decades later, and now it takes only a couple of years .... We are crashing atoms, developing autonomous cars, most us guessing how long it will take, yet even the major figures involved cannot agree ....
So how could a poor government of Ontario know how much power we will need 20-30'years from now???? Think about it ....
So how could a poor government of Ontario know how much power we will need 20-30'years from now???? Think about it ....
I think the term brain washed is more accurate. Then the brain washed make bad choices. So they don't look obviously stupid the brain washed zombies cop attitudes ridiculing people that don't wear $150.00 Kanye West white tee shirts. More join the zombie club and reason disappears.
If someone is dumb enough to pay $150 for a plain tee shirt they're dumb enough to re-elect Kathleen Wynne.
Her logic is simple. Most Ontarians pay less for hydro then they would for a couple of tee shirts. Right?
And the beat goes on. Da da da da dah.
sburns
Well-known member
Well the overall scheme of electricity in Ontario is very confusing and f-d up. The price of it has what almost doubled in a short period of time, and it doesn't seem like we are using a whole lot more of it, or the demand has become stagnate, yet we pay more.
People throw around "we are not paying the real amount" How why, what evidence is there, or just more political BS? I thought the whole system was designed to offer affordable rates. I could care less what is happening in the rest of the world our market is here. When that is referenced it makes me think this is an excuse to sell users on higher prices. My money didn't go into out of province infrastructure. At least I hope it didn't
I found this article from the globe interesting. Who knows how slanted it might be against the Liberals but it is informative non the least.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...city-cost-so-much-in-ontario/article33453270/
Either way there just seems like more financial hurt is on the way with nothing the average joe can do, but work more for the same services and dance around and micromanage your usage.
Sometimes I forget we live in the first world when we have nonsense like this to deal with. Life should be better then burdened with more taxes, less services, and accepting the status as is.
People throw around "we are not paying the real amount" How why, what evidence is there, or just more political BS? I thought the whole system was designed to offer affordable rates. I could care less what is happening in the rest of the world our market is here. When that is referenced it makes me think this is an excuse to sell users on higher prices. My money didn't go into out of province infrastructure. At least I hope it didn't
I found this article from the globe interesting. Who knows how slanted it might be against the Liberals but it is informative non the least.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...city-cost-so-much-in-ontario/article33453270/
Either way there just seems like more financial hurt is on the way with nothing the average joe can do, but work more for the same services and dance around and micromanage your usage.
Sometimes I forget we live in the first world when we have nonsense like this to deal with. Life should be better then burdened with more taxes, less services, and accepting the status as is.
