How much Eco stuff can we afford?

[Mad Mike]

Wow the list of companies you worked with that collapsed is impressive. Not calling you this week ….


Kidding …. Sort of …..


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

Where is your office? I’m happy to drop off a kiss of death.

On a serious note, I was in the tech side of telecom for 20 years, then banking for a while. I could list the companies is worked with that did well too... they include a few that now operate campuses...

One thing I have seen with small-town big companies is the number of middle managers that have zero external experience, it's not uncommon to see a large number of them with 20+ years of tenure. They pass culture down to the next upcoming 30-year middle manager, over time their management styles and culture become inbred due to a lack of diversity.

When I was banking, you could really see the differences between folks that managed similar centers, I worked for a group that had 1000+ in London, Moncton and Toronto -- it was also clear that departments doing yeoman's work with a large workforce were well suited to small centers -- progressive parts of the operation always moved to large centers.

 

[Baggsy]

Where is your office? I’m happy to drop off a kiss of death.

On a serious note, I was in the tech side of telecom for 20 years, then banking for a while. Typical characteristic of small-town big companies to have middle managers with 30 years of tenure and no external experience - they pass that culture along to the next upcoming 30 year middle manager and the culture and management style becomes inbred.

When I was banking, you could really see the differences between folks that managed similar centers in London vs Toronto, it was also clear that departments doing yeoman's work with a large workforce are well suited to small centers -- progressive parts of the operation gets moved to a large centers.

My first business contract as a kid was writing a reconciliation program for the cage at Canada Trust.
Their IT department didn't seem to want to do it.
Eventually, they did. Only time I ever worked on a Trash 80.

 

[crankcall]

Why do I keep hearing IT stories about IT depts. that dont want to do IT?
My wifes group at her work seem to stall out once they get passed "did you switch it off/on again?"

 

[GreyGhost]

Why do I keep hearing IT stories about IT depts. that dont want to do IT?
My wifes group at her work seem to stall out once they get passed "did you switch it off/on again?"

They are still employed aren't they? Being well compensated? Punting everything not routine and/or hard? Many people would love to have a job like that.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Why do I keep hearing IT stories about IT depts. that dont want to do IT?
My wifes group at her work seem to stall out once they get passed "did you switch it off/on again?"

Because employers want to hire people with zero experience, as they can pay them dirt? Because they hire unqualified people who read from a script, instead of having actual problem solving skills? I've been where I am for more than 20 years now. It's very rare that people in my group have to throw up our hands and say that an issue is essentially unfixable, or get stuck waiting for a manufacturer to provide a solution.
-----
On the EV thing, we definitely need to work on recycling. EVs are still the way to go, because they're source independent. Solar, wind, hydro, fossil fuel, or nuclear; it doesn't matter. Wjhet happens when battery tech changes/improves? As long as the batteries are functional at normal temperature ranges, it's not an issue. Just swap for the new cell type when the old one is end-of-life. If they'll build the vehicles to survive more than 5 years, like they seem to now, then the same car could be used regardless.

 

[GreyGhost]

Because employers want to hire people with zero experience, as they can pay them dirt? Because they hire unqualified people who read from a script, instead of having actual problem solving skills? I've been where I am for more than 20 years now. It's very rare that people in my group have to throw up our hands and say that an issue is essentially unfixable, or get stuck waiting for a manufacturer to provide a solution.
-----
On the EV thing, we definitely need to work on recycling. EVs are still the way to go, because they're source independent. Solar, wind, hydro, fossil fuel, or nuclear; it doesn't matter. Wjhet happens when battery tech changes/improves? As long as the batteries are functional at normal temperature ranges, it's not an issue. Just swap for the new cell type when the old one is end-of-life. If they'll build the vehicles to survive more than 5 years, like they seem to now, then the same car could be used regardless.

The vast majority of modern EV's should be quite capable cars for a very long time (as long they they don't rust). They have lots of power, decent tech, etc. I don't even know if battery swaps will be required. Other than some turds like the leaf, how is range degradation on modern EV's? Most seem good. Even if range starts to slide, a 400 km vehicle could easily become a great city vehicle with half the range.

 

[Sochi]

with all the electrical hype I think we need to slow down and fist fix issues like child labor and poor work conditions to produce those metals needed for batteries...

Child labour, toxic leaks: the price we could pay for a greener future

Our mission to create cleaner living using natural resources could itself cause widespread environmental harm, scientists now warn

www.theguardian.com

this one from 2016, but I doubt if it's any better now, probably worse as demand keeps growing..

Exposed: Child labour behind smart phone and electric car batteries

Major electronics brands, including Apple, Samsung and Sony, are failing to do basic checks to ensure that cobalt mined by child labourers has not been used in their products, said Amnesty International and Afrewatch in a report published today.

www.amnesty.org

 

[Mad Mike]

with all the electrical hype I think we need to slow down and fist fix issues like child labor and poor work conditions to produce those metals needed for batteries...

Child labour, toxic leaks: the price we could pay for a greener future

Our mission to create cleaner living using natural resources could itself cause widespread environmental harm, scientists now warn

www.theguardian.com

this one from 2016, but I doubt if it's any better now, probably worse as demand keeps growing..

Exposed: Child labour behind smart phone and electric car batteries

Major electronics brands, including Apple, Samsung and Sony, are failing to do basic checks to ensure that cobalt mined by child labourers has not been used in their products, said Amnesty International and Afrewatch in a report published today.

www.amnesty.org

This is ugly stuff, my feeling is it's more of a gov't thing than that of industry. Add cobalt to the 'conflict mineral' list and this cleans up DRC issues fairly quickly.

 

[jc100]

Not having kids I feel like I could drive a Chevy suburban and burn down a rainforest a day for fun and still come out ahead.

 

[killvino]

The vast majority of modern EV's should be quite capable cars for a very long time (as long they they don't rust). They have lots of power, decent tech, etc. I don't even know if battery swaps will be required. Other than some turds like the leaf, how is range degradation on modern EV's? Most seem good. Even if range starts to slide, a 400 km vehicle could easily become a great city vehicle with half the range.

most of the first gen model s are still kicking and held value better than their ICE counterparts (S class, 7 series) of the same years.
IIRC the math was about 10% degradation every 100,000mi which isn't bad at all.

 

[Baggsy]

Not having kids I feel like I could drive a Chevy suburban and burn down a rainforest a day for fun and still come out ahead.

Living in Canada, I could have 100 kids, and feel the same.

 

[nobbie48]

Where is your office? I’m happy to drop off a kiss of death.

On a serious note, I was in the tech side of telecom for 20 years, then banking for a while. I could list the companies is worked with that did well too... they include a few that now operate campuses...

One thing I have seen with small-town big companies is the number of middle managers that have zero external experience, it's not uncommon to see a large number of them with 20+ years of tenure. They pass culture down to the next upcoming 30-year middle manager, over time their management styles and culture become inbred due to a lack of diversity.

When I was banking, you could really see the differences between folks that managed similar centers, I worked for a group that had 1000+ in London, Moncton and Toronto -- it was also clear that departments doing yeoman's work with a large workforce were well suited to small centers -- progressive parts of the operation always moved to large centers.

I worked for a company with head office and manufacturing in a small town. They didn't like to buy parts made more than 30 miles away. Since then it's been taken over by a major US company and parts are made in China.

It was hard to get R&D to spend money on testing stuff for a luxury Toronto building when the biggest building project in town was someone getting vinyl siding on their house.

 

[MacDoc]

Other than some turds like the leaf

Don't knock the Leaf ...

These guys will trade in your old Leaf pack OR convert it for you for home power use.

We are targeting a sale price of approximately a third of the cost of an equivalent new Leaf for the GREEN variant. To avoid setting unrealistic expectations in the current inflationary environment, we have chosen to wait until closer to production before announcing an exact price. The 1/3 target price is BEFORE the trade in of your original battery pack is factored in which will reduce your final cost. Because we re-use the original battery enclosure when creating a new 16 Blade pack, there will be no option to buy 16 Blade without trading in a pack in exchange. However, there will be options to keep your original modules/cells repackaged into a more convenient form factor for stationary storage applications.

Aftermarket Battery - EVs Enhanced

16 BLADE – The Ultimate Nissan LEAF Battery We are pleased to introduce 16 Blade, a complete replacement platform for the Nissan LEAF. Built from the ground up by EVs Enhanced, 16 Blade has been designed using the optimal module layout with the confines of the original Nissan battery pack...

evsenhanced.com

It's set to be a big business but people more likely to trade up to newer EVs than batteries with a few exceptions like the Leaf.

16 Blade green has a target single charge range of 270km WLTP

the GREEN variant using long lifespan LFP chemistry and a capacity of approximately 40kWh.

The BLUE variant focuses on maximum range with over 70kWh

If range translates from kWh linearly that gives a 470 km range

 

[GreyGhost]

Don't knock the Leaf ...

These guys will trade in your old Leaf pack OR convert it for you for home power use.

Aftermarket Battery - EVs Enhanced

16 BLADE – The Ultimate Nissan LEAF Battery We are pleased to introduce 16 Blade, a complete replacement platform for the Nissan LEAF. Built from the ground up by EVs Enhanced, 16 Blade has been designed using the optimal module layout with the confines of the original Nissan battery pack...

evsenhanced.com

It's set to be a big business but people more likely to trade up to newer EVs than batteries with a few exceptions like the Leaf.



If range translates from kWh linearly that gives a 470 km range

Leaf deserves to be knocked. It is such a steaming pile from the factory that there is a viable business to replace the battery packs with something better.

Repurposing battery packs from crashed ev's for standby power/load shifting makes a lot of sense. If douggie implements 0.02 super off-peak rates, the system could pay for itself and you dont need to worry about power outages less than a day (and no annoying generator hammering away).

 

[MacDoc]

Early adopters always pay. The Leaf was the number one seller in Norway for several years.

look at these numbers - petrol is doomed in one of the world's petro states.

83.7% Of Cars Sold In Norway In January 2022 Were EVs – E V O B S E S S I O N

evobsession.com

astonishing

In total, there were only 175 gas car sales in Norway in January, 212 diesel engine car sales, 910 hybrid sales, and 6,660 battery-electric vehicle sales.

 

[BB722]

Early adopters always pay. The Leaf was the number one seller in Norway for several years.

look at these numbers - petrol is doomed in one of the world's petro states.
View attachment 56436

83.7% Of Cars Sold In Norway In January 2022 Were EVs – E V O B S E S S I O N

evobsession.com

astonishing

Petrol is only doomed there because their government is essentially forcing sales away from petrol and incentivizing ev's heavily, it doesn't mean a thing for the rest of the world.

For example a Ford Explorer 3.5 V6 starts at the equiavelent of around $127k CDN in Norway while in Canada it starts at $47k.
However a Tesla Model 3 is even cheaper to buy there than it is here as comes out to $52k CDN equiavelent in Norway, while it's $61k here.

As well as fuel there peaking around $3.50 CDN per litre recently as well while we saw it just above $2.
99% of their electricity comes from hydro so it's cheap.
Plus a whole bunch of incentives like free parking, cheaper tolls and ferries and more you can look it up

 

[MacDoc]

and ???
Weaning the world off petrol is akin to weaning people off tobacco - high taxes and prices to discourage destructive behaviour.
Incentives to encourage a shift from destructive technology.
We have relatively cheap electricity as well with nuclear and hydro.

It shows what petrol state can do to get the shift to low carbon moving.

 

[BB722]

The point is that It's an outlier and the rest of the world can't just do what they do.
They are a tiny and very rich nation but even now they are going to have to figure out how to make up for the tax revenue lost from ICE vehicles and that will come from EV's somehow and that might undermine EV sales and those pretty stats everyone points to.
The rest of the world can't just tax ICE out of existence forcing EV only like they do, taxes were always high there to begin with.
But that's what it takes, because given the option most people still stick with ICE globally.
As EV's improve though it will naturally change no doubt, but Norway is not a realistic example is all I'm saying

 

[GreyGhost]

But that's what it takes, because given the option most people still stick with ICE globally.

I'm not sure that is remotely correct. Where in the world are ICE and EV similarly priced and taxed? I would argue the majority of people pick the cheapest option which right now in most of the world is ICE. There is a deep pile of arguments around petroleum subsidies which are often ingrained in countries and aren't directly visible like an EV subsidy that is applied to your bill. I haven't dug through that pile enough to determine how much I believe it nor how much it would effect the vehicle price and operating cost.

 

[BB722]

I'm not sure that is remotely correct. Where in the world are ICE and EV similarly priced and taxed? I would argue the majority of people pick the cheapest option which in most of the world is ICE. There is a deep pile of arguments around petroleum subsidies which are often ingrained in countries and aren't directly visible like an EV subsidy that is applied to your bill. I haven't dug through that pile enough to determine how much I believe it nor how much it would effect the vehicle price and operating cost.

Taxed the same across North America correct me if i'm wrong
ICE being cheapest is the point, Norway has always been high tax on ICE so EV appears cheap there in comparison but how many other nations could do that? If EV's were half the price of an ICE car here in Canada all you'd see is EV's here as well.
The stats from other countries aside from Norway are more realistic imo