How crucial is education in the real world?

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there is always something to be said for "knowing a guy" that can get you into a position or get you an interview, and if your credible and have a track record you may not need that piece of paper. But if you want into a job where you know no one you better have your own credentials , they in essence 'vouch' for you.

One of the problems with trades and attracting people is they just don't pay enough. High end cabinet shop, starter guy gets 40k really talented guy gets 50K ? You can take an inside sales job on an order desk, near the coffee pot for 40K and a smart guy makes 60K . Yeah lots of trades pay better, but they all need to pay better.
 
Baggsy said:
That's true, but it was possible to register as a journeyman in some trades, and I believe it still is. If dad owns the company, you might start your career as a super and move up from there.
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yup...not sure if it's still possible, but in Ontario they had a "challenge" option
for a worker that had been doing the trade for awhile, but was uncertified
employer could vouch for hours worked, and worker could write the C of Q exam
if they pulled a good result out of their butt, they passed and were given a ticket
having never attended any of schooling, or having worked under the care of a Journeyman

this is why it was hard for Ontario techs in my industry to get hired in other provinces with stricter standards
Alberta being one, with a much better apprenticeship training program, top notch outfits tended to pass on Ontario candidates

it was possible for a guy from Ontario who had worked in a junk yard and pulled off a pass
to get a Red Seal journeyman ticket

but it was 30 years ago I went through the apprenticeship program
hopefully they've stopped that practice by now
 
My first impression of a doctor, I was 6 years old, my older brother and I are sitting on the back porch watching the doctor next door struggle with a step ladder :| after a while my brother sent me over to teach him how to open a step ladder.
 
Unfortunately without an education you prob won't get a great paying job.

You need schooling in most cases to land or qualify for it. Problem with some is they get a good job (let's say snow removal/heavy op) but then something happens and they can't work in that industry anymore. Well now you are in trouble, even with transferable skill (if) no one will touch you without those school papers.

So back to school it is.

My advice is pick up as many tickets/skills/diplomas etc that you can afford. Don't go overboard and try to stay outta debt for it. Plenty of courses don't actually cost that much and you will get a "papered" skill out of it
 
We ***** and moan about CEOs raking in millions for a job but, they had to get educated before landing the job.

From my experience, the high earners in business have Executive MBAs in a respected institution.

It isn’t cheap. It isn’t easy. It’s a lot of work and it pays off in many ways.

What I don’t understand is young people heading off to university to persue degrees in fields that have little to no opportunity and marginal income.

I’ve hired many university students for call centres. Many working in their second or third degree because the first lead nowhere and decided they needed a change.

No doubt, you can make a good living in trades. However, they also need folks to plan and design things that need built. And that isn’t entry level stuff and not learned on the job.

I know lots of small business owners. And most make a great living. But many struggled because it’s a different skill set to run a successful business over being an exceptionally skilled person in the field.

I’ve steered my kids to start out in college that is associated with a good university. Where they can work while they learn, get a diploma in a field that is in demand, has opportunity to grow and achieve a degree in the same field.

Me? I’ve got a diploma in Electrical Technology and ended up in finance. My employer keeps reminding me they will pay for an Executive MBA if I want more opportunities within the company.

If someone wants to go to college for social worker or hotel management, I just smile and wish them well. I won’t convince them it’s a waste of time and money.




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I think MBAs are the cause of problems for some companies. Given the choice of someone who started on the work floor and worked their way up through a company and a fresh faced MBA who’s just graduated from a top business school who has no experience I would have thought the choice would be obvious. There’s quite a few unemployed MBA types these days too.

edit: executive MBAs aren't the issue. It’s the run of the mill ones.
 
There are good and bad MBAs just as there are good and bad of just about any discipline you care to name. The ones who don't know what they are doing can wreak havoc, especially when they are only capable of talking and giving orders and are incapable of listening. Let's improve the books next quarter by cutting staff in the maintenance department. next quarter rolls by ... Can't hire people for the maintenance department because it'll look bad on the books. next quarter rolls by ... Why is production downtime increasing so much? next quarter rolls by ... What's this half million dollar purchase order request to replace a machine that isn't depreciated yet? next quarter rolls by ... Close the plant, it's not making money ...
 
one of the most successful self employed people I know has a thing for MBA's

self-made guy, has done very well, says it stands for mighty big azzhole
 
This.

Brian P said:
Advice to kids/teens: Learn how to build stuff. Learn how to fix stuff. Learn how to do things, real things, not video games. Get an understanding of how and why things work. It almost doesn't matter what it is, it's best if it's something that captures your interest.
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The question is fairly wide, but since engineering is mentioned a fair bit, here is an take from someone who works in the industry. In tech, we work closely with the University of Waterloo, among other top schools and hire anywhere from coops to undergrads to post-docs and researchers. So what am I looking for when hiring people and how important is education?

For engineering, you need a degree. A diploma is a tough sell, but plausible and self-taught is almost non-existent for top firms. That said, one of the best coders I worked with actually dropped out of highschool, but those guys are very rare. B.Eng is great, P.Eng is better, but M.Eng or Phd makes hardly any difference. 99% of the time there is no replacement for formal background in engineering, particularly in software development (despite what most people think). That said, when I look at transcripts, generally kids in the 90+'s avg. are not the kids to hire. Great at tests, terrible at real problem solving. Of course they will get a few technical questions in the interview to solve a simple real world problem, but the more important question is the first question I generally ask: What do you do for fun?

Why? 1.) it breaks the ice and 2.) it tells me a lot about someone. If you watch netflix and surf snapchat all day, it tells me more about you than grades, references, or the like. I asked one kid "Why do you want to be a software engineer?" The response: Because my mom and dad said I should. Not great. However if you tried to build a rocket with your friend but failed, that's much more interesting. One kid I had last week tried to create a machine vision robot that could play mario bros. Super cool. I can teach skills, I can't teach ambition, drive or passion. Success in this business is about drive and persistence. Did you re-write your algorithm 5 times and loose a night of sleep because something about the design was bothering you? or did you just click submit and move on never to look at it again?

Trades were also mentioned. I know a few people in that business who can't find people willing to work. Good money, union or otherwise. No drive in the kids, or they don't even show up at all. It's the same deal, show ambition and be accountable. Also show you want to earn your next ticket. e.g. if you're a gas fitter, also get your electrical or refrigeration ticket, it only drives up your value.

Formal education requirements have increased in the past decades, and will continue to do so for most work. Why? liability. This also means a premium on the work (higher barrier to entry). It will take effort, but it does pay off.

edit: Oh, and if the thing you're doing in school isn't a job title, you are probably wasting your time. It's hard to hear, but it's also true.
 
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I'm ex Waterloo, mechanical engineering, many moons ago.

I had an interesting conversation with a prospective client a few months ago. Something about how I spoke must have tipped him off. "Are you a farm boy?" (Close ... rural property. Why?) "The farm boys all have a get it done attitude, and you talk the same way."
 
Has to be a definite goal in sight when entering university.I have 4 family members that entered university without a goal and have all ended up struggling.My stepdaughter took Enviro Sciences at U of W in the co-op program with the intent to work in the environmental protection field.At the time i was very negative (esp because the co-op's were in Costa Rica),but i am so happy that she stuck to her goals.She now works for a firm that does research work (6 figure salary),is president of the Toronto Entomologist Society and is a guide for Quest Tours https://www.worldwidequest.com/index.php?page=trips&cmd=review&key=monarchs_of_mexico#ad-image-0 in Mexico and Costa Rica.

Education can pay off if it is specific and you can afford it.
 
:D flutter by's !
 
And on the other side of the coin.My daughter that is the same age as her stepsister,struggled to finish her education.But is as happy as you can possibly get with the work she does and a partner in life that is the best! I'm a happy Dad.
 
lol today for some reason, I had to educate a mechanical engineer about tolerances and uniform quality standards. Company recently hired a couple mechanical engineers in the QA department. Must not be alot of work available in that field.
 
They have been graduating a lot of engineers in the last decade, because there is a lot of demand for engineers. Not all new grads are going to land the dream job and if they want work, it will be the job they can get, maybe not the job they want.

Lady in our social circle is a Phd P eng , just retired as Prof from University, her stories about some of the students that made it to final yr and shouldn't have are a bit alarming.

But every trade/ industry/ profession has good, better, best
 
I think a big part of the problem is that we are asking HS students to decide on their career / major when they’re still developing and don’t have a clue as to what they actually wanted.
Personally, I never knew what I wanted to be, but I knew that in order to open the most amount of doors I ended up applying for Aerospace Engineering at Ryerson, and shockingly getting accepted. Mid-way through thecourses I realized that engineering wasn’t going to be the thing that will make me tick for the remainder of my life, but kept with it because I knew it would still open many doors.

FF to graduation, and after Sept 11 the industry took a dive and no jobs out there, except for the few, and very few of my friends that did co-ops. Those in the co-ops are still working in the same companies, with high level roles as Engineering Managers and enjoying it. Besides them, 2 out of my 10 friends I keep touch with are still in Aero. The rest…engineering manager in a different field, couple guys in finance, one in construction(me), and a few in production.

I did some tech sales job (was hired because not in W&WW industry, but they liked my sales (Jaguar car sales) experience and technical skills (eng degree in a different field). Got bored of the pay and went to another role for 10k more within a year. Got bored of that and went to another role for 20k more where the Sales Manager liked my: Eng degree (totally unrelated field), Sales Experience, and my enthusiasm. That was the best decision I made in my life. Have been in the industry for 11 years now, with a continually growing experience level, and currently with the FIFO gig I’m making great money for this job, love my job, and making a better (hopefully!) name for myself in this industry (tunnelling) which will hopefully bring better and greater results. It was definitely not a regular route, but I found my niche and I love it.

Currently debating doing the PEng route because in my industry it's needed to jump levels, but putting together my 'application of theory' is difficult. Never did a day of engineering (official) past school.
 
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Great Thread.

I went to University of Waterloo and graduated in 2010 with Economics degree. However, I graduated with less debt and a lot of work experience because of my co-op experience. Unfortunately, I struggled to get a job right away. After moving from job to job to pay bills, I finally became a Business Analyst. Have had few years of experience in that field. I found something astonishing is that not even once any employer asked about my degree nor verified if I actually do have a degree.

Long story short, I feel like I want to do something else and I am trying to figure that out. My greatest strengths are people skills, public speaking, absolutely no fear of talking, love math and technical stuff. Yes, I did some hardcore refinishing deck work this summer. I enjoyed the work but pay sucked.

I dont mind getting into trades but I need something a bit more technical, pays more because of what I can do. Anyone know any trade like that? I am also considering getting into Sales and Operations department of any big company. Figured I like working in fast paced environment with people.
 
black_CG2 said:
Great Thread.

I went to University of Waterloo and graduated in 2010 with Economics degree. However, I graduated with less debt and a lot of work experience because of my co-op experience. Unfortunately, I struggled to get a job right away. After moving from job to job to pay bills, I finally became a Business Analyst. Have had few years of experience in that field. I found something astonishing is that not even once any employer asked about my degree nor verified if I actually do have a degree.

Long story short, I feel like I want to do something else and I am trying to figure that out. My greatest strengths are people skills, public speaking, absolutely no fear of talking, love math and technical stuff. Yes, I did some hardcore refinishing deck work this summer. I enjoyed the work but pay sucked.

I dont mind getting into trades but I need something a bit more technical, pays more because of what I can do. Anyone know any trade like that? I am also considering getting into Sales and Operations department of any big company. Figured I like working in fast paced environment with people.
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Sounds like technical sales or account management would be a good fit. I know SalesForce has a great program, and a lot of IT needs people to be able to work with clients in a pre and post sales role to manage the transition / implementation, as well as just keeping clients happy. I loved technical sales and would consider going back for the right opportunity.
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