Heater -- Working on bike over the winter

[lakshan]

Thanks for all the responses! I have standard sized single garage but it's separate from the house, there's no entrance from the house and no room above. It's just cement blocks and some plaster on the outer walls, and one of the walls is against the house. The rear has a door leading to the backyard that's leaky as hell. So as others have suggested, I'm first going to work on insulating/sealing the space. After that I'll see if I need to upgrade my little space heater. I don't need the temp to be very high, just comfortable enough in a sweater is fine. Those ceiling mounted garage heaters look like a good investment

 

[nobbie48]

Reminds me of when I bought my house. I had to upgrade the panel as the fuse sockets were corroded.

I had to get a permit, which I did, the utility had to come and remove the meter seal and meter to do the upgrade. The original homeowner ran a basement circuit into the panel using an extension cord, rather than unwiring it from the old panel, I just chopped it off outside the manel and left that circuit out of the refit. The ESA guy noticed the old panel sitting on the floor, and the orange extension cord that was run into the box. Start of sh&^show.

He made me yank a couple of panels off the walls adjacent to the new panel. We discovered the all the basement wiring was done with BX to the first connection then extension cords everywhere else. I had to open every single box in the basement for inspection. We had to remove 3 basement circuits and install 5 lights with pull switches to meet compliance.

I would have found and repaired the wiring eventually as I planned to renovate the lousy DIY everything the original homeowner did. I'm glad the inspector's great guess about more hidden extension cord wiring -- could have saved a catastrophe.

Extension cords are designed to be flexible so more or a different plasticizer is used in the insulation. The trade off is life expectancy. I was working with an ancient band saw and the cord from the motor to the switch cracked when bent.

One other thing that rests on the inspectors shoulders is that the present owner and his usage may be different than the next owner and the results could a fire. The use of an inappropriate power supply to weld for a few minutes a week could be harmless but the next owner could see the outlet and use it for a stove for hours at a time.

 

[nobbie48]

Thanks for all the responses! I have standard sized single garage but it's separate from the house, there's no entrance from the house and no room above. It's just cement blocks and some plaster on the outer walls, and one of the walls is against the house. The rear has a door leading to the backyard that's leaky as hell. So as others have suggested, I'm first going to work on insulating/sealing the space. After that I'll see if I need to upgrade my little space heater. I don't need the temp to be very high, just comfortable enough in a sweater is fine. Those ceiling mounted garage heaters look like a good investment

A lot depends on your budget and how handy you are. Also you mention not needing the shop to be a sauna, a big savings. Keep in mind that as you make it more comfortable for yourself it becomes more comfortable for wire chewing mice that prefer motorcycle wire to the less expensive types. Plug every hole you can find.

I did some calculations using BS data and some assumptions the best expectations for a 4800 watt heater would be a temperature gain of about 12 - 14 F°. On an average Toronto winter day (28°F) you might get around 40° F. Adding insulation would drastically improve the numbers.

 

[GreyGhost]

Thanks for all the responses! I have standard sized single garage but it's separate from the house, there's no entrance from the house and no room above. It's just cement blocks and some plaster on the outer walls, and one of the walls is against the house. The rear has a door leading to the backyard that's leaky as hell. So as others have suggested, I'm first going to work on insulating/sealing the space. After that I'll see if I need to upgrade my little space heater. I don't need the temp to be very high, just comfortable enough in a sweater is fine. Those ceiling mounted garage heaters look like a good investment

Radiant heaters are sounding like the ticket for you. Yes, it is good to work on sealing and insulating the space, but that takes time and money. The radiant heaters make it nicer for you right now (hell, they can even make outside nicer if you don't mind paying to heat the earth) and continue to be useful after you have the garage sealed and insulated.

 

[Bobo]

A lot depends on your budget and how handy you are. Also you mention not needing the shop to be a sauna, a big savings. Keep in mind that as you make it more comfortable for yourself it becomes more comfortable for wire chewing mice that prefer motorcycle wire to the less expensive types. Plug every hole you can find.

I did some calculations using BS data and some assumptions the best expectations for a 4800 watt heater would be a temperature gain of about 12 - 14 F°. On an average Toronto winter day (28°F) you might get around 40° F. Adding insulation would drastically improve the numbers.

If anyone has a mouse problem i suggest that you use AC90 (commonly commonly known as BX or armoured cable) for any new wiring.Its not that much more expensive and worth the peace of mind.I also suggest you use #12 AWG wire that allows you to use 20 amp receptacles. Also keep in mind that if your garage is attached to your house,you are now required to use arc fault breakers on new receptacle circuits.

 

[GreyGhost]

If anyone has a mouse problem i suggest that you use AC90 (commonly commonly known as BX or armoured cable) for any new wiring.Its not that much more expensive and worth the peace of mind.I also suggest you use #12 AWG wire that allows you to use 20 amp receptacles. Also keep in mind that if your garage is attached to your house,you are now required to use arc fault breakers for receptacle circuits.

Interestingly, at home depot they have spools of 12/3 BX cheaper than spools of romex (same wire configuration, same length). This doesn't work for the other wire configurations. Not sure why. Maybe their 12/3 BX is old stock and will get a price jump when they order more?

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/so...omex-simpull-nmd90-12-3-yellow-75m/1000108186

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/so...ical-wire-gauge-12-3-ac90-12-3-75m/1000157334

So arc-fault is required for all receptacles now? What a nightmare. How are people doing split plugs? Two AF breakers and a tie-bar? (EDIT: two-pole AF breakers available). Does anyone make a narrow(tandem) AF breaker? Most houses are coming with panels with very few empty spots. I would be tempted to drop a full-size sub panel as part of the first electrical work to allow you to remain code compliant (but very poor with breakers at ~$90 per circuit vs ~$10 for the equivalent conventional breaker).

EDIT:
So the NEC requires AF for "Extension, modifications of branch circuits, or replacement of receptacles " since 2011. So if that applied to my house, replacing a receptable would mean to remain code compliant a sub-panel was required. Many of the circuits are tandem breakers (this panel allows every slot to be a tandem) and replacing with AF would mean losing circuits or installing a 2nd panel. Fack.

In my last house, I had a sub-panel installed as I needed GFCI protected circuits and it was cheaper to do that than to buy the horrendously overpriced, discontinued, used GFCI breakers that fit in the panel. It was just an eight slot panel though. Given the need for everything to get a new full-size breaker, I would be putting in at least a 100A sub-panel now (which would not be cheap nor easy to accommodate in most dwellings.

 

[Mad Mike]

If anyone has a mouse problem i suggest that you use AC90 (commonly commonly known as BX or armoured cable) for any new wiring.Its not that much more expensive and worth the peace of mind.I also suggest you use #12 AWG wire that allows you to use 20 amp receptacles. Also keep in mind that if your garage is attached to your house,you are now required to use arc fault breakers on new receptacle circuits.

I prefer PBC conduit. You can buy grey PVC cheap, it's super easy to work - with and looks nicer when installed.

 

[GreyGhost]

I prefer PBC conduit. You can buy grey PVC cheap, it's super easy to work - with and looks nicer when installed.

That also let's me use up some of the 1000' spools of 12 ga. in the garage. Does the subject to damage rule for schedule 80 apply inside a garage? I've never used conduit inside.

 

[Bobo]

I prefer PBC conduit. You can buy grey PVC cheap, it's super easy to work - with and looks nicer when installed.

You cant run PVC conduit in combustible buildings or return air plenums(in T bar ceilings).You would generally use EMT(thinwall) conduit for that. Get yourself a bender for about $50,some fittings ,boxes and you're good to go.Its a lot easier than it looks.

 

[Bobo]

Interestingly, at home depot they have spools of 12/3 BX cheaper than spools of romex (same wire configuration, same length). This doesn't work for the other wire configurations. Not sure why. Maybe their 12/3 BX is old stock and will get a price jump when they order more?

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/so...omex-simpull-nmd90-12-3-yellow-75m/1000108186

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/so...ical-wire-gauge-12-3-ac90-12-3-75m/1000157334

So arc-fault is required for all receptacles now? What a nightmare. How are people doing split plugs? Two AF breakers and a tie-bar? (EDIT: two-pole AF breakers available). Does anyone make a narrow(tandem) AF breaker? Most houses are coming with panels with very few empty spots. I would be tempted to drop a full-size sub panel as part of the first electrical work to allow you to remain code compliant (but very poor with breakers at ~$90 per circuit vs ~$10 for the equivalent conventional breaker).

EDIT:
So the NEC requires AF for "Extension, modifications of branch circuits, or replacement of receptacles " since 2011. So if that applied to my house, replacing a receptable would mean to remain code compliant a sub-panel was required. Many of the circuits are tandem breakers (this panel allows every slot to be a tandem) and replacing with AF would mean losing circuits or installing a 2nd panel. Fack.

In my last house, I had a sub-panel installed as I needed GFCI protected circuits and it was cheaper to do that than to buy the horrendously overpriced, discontinued, used GFCI breakers that fit in the panel. It was just an eight slot panel though. Given the need for everything to get a new full-size breaker, I would be putting in at least a 100A sub-panel now (which would not be cheap nor easy to accommodate in most dwellings.

Split plugs are history,they've been replaced with 20 amp plugs. If it's on a kitchen counter it isn't required to be on an arc fault breaker.

 

[GreyGhost]

Split plugs are history,they've been replaced with 20 amp plugs. If it's on a kitchen counter it isn't required to be on an arc fault breaker.

I still like splits for places like the garage. Air comp + shop vac pops a 20.

My kitchen has a combination of 15 and 20 amp split outlets (well presumably, there is a 20 with a tie bar labeled kitchen outlets as well as 15's with tie bars labelled the same, I haven't gone through the whole house yet to figure out what things actually are [for instance the upstairs bathroom is labelled panel]).

 

[boyoboy]

Interestingly, at home depot they have spools of 12/3 BX cheaper than spools of romex (same wire configuration, same length). This doesn't work for the other wire configurations. Not sure why. Maybe their 12/3 BX is old stock and will get a price jump when they order more?

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/so...omex-simpull-nmd90-12-3-yellow-75m/1000108186

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/so...ical-wire-gauge-12-3-ac90-12-3-75m/1000157334

So arc-fault is required for all receptacles now? What a nightmare. How are people doing split plugs? Two AF breakers and a tie-bar? (EDIT: two-pole AF breakers available). Does anyone make a narrow(tandem) AF breaker? Most houses are coming with panels with very few empty spots. I would be tempted to drop a full-size sub panel as part of the first electrical work to allow you to remain code compliant (but very poor with breakers at ~$90 per circuit vs ~$10 for the equivalent conventional breaker).

EDIT:
So the NEC requires AF for "Extension, modifications of branch circuits, or replacement of receptacles " since 2011. So if that applied to my house, replacing a receptable would mean to remain code compliant a sub-panel was required. Many of the circuits are tandem breakers (this panel allows every slot to be a tandem) and replacing with AF would mean losing circuits or installing a 2nd panel. Fack.

In my last house, I had a sub-panel installed as I needed GFCI protected circuits and it was cheaper to do that than to buy the horrendously overpriced, discontinued, used GFCI breakers that fit in the panel. It was just an eight slot panel though. Given the need for everything to get a new full-size breaker, I would be putting in at least a 100A sub-panel now (which would not be cheap nor easy to accommodate in most dwellings.

If you want to save money you can use a ground fault protected receptacle at the first rececptacle - and any other regular additional receptacles on the circuit will also be ground fault protected too. easy. Not all circuits require ground fault protection. Bathrooms, sink areas, and outdoor receptacles do. I don't think every circuit in a house now requires it. If Im wrong please send me a link.

if you use BX make sure to properly use anti shorts on all the connections. steel studs, of course, require BX.

For a homeowner it is fairly easy to get a permit and certificate of inspection. This is a must do for insurance coverage. They may or may not ask for a blueprint for the work you intend to do. Drawing one out by hand is acceptable. Realize however that once an inspector arrives - your entire electrical system is open to scrutiny. Not just the work you do.

In a recent conversation with an ESA inspector I was told that changing out the service panel and/or mast would have to be done by a licensed contractor - its not allowed by the homeowner. However, he told me a homeowner CAN INSTALL a sub panel. Go figure.

 

[boyoboy]

EDITED
If you want to save money you can use a ground fault protected receptacle at the first rececptacle out of the panel - and any other regular additional receptacles on the circuit will also be ground fault protected too. easy. Not all circuits require ground fault protection. Bathrooms, sink areas, and outdoor/garage receptacles do. I don't think every circuit in a house now requires it. If Im wrong please send me a link. But I doubt it.

if you use BX make sure to properly use anti shorts on all the connections. steel studs, of course, require BX. Romex is easier to use and quicker. Its easy for a novice DIY to nick the wires when removing the BX armour for tying in - be extra careful and all is good. use anti shorts securely. I have, on several occasions, found electrical BX connections void of anti shorts - negating the point of using BX in the first place. I wouldn't use BX unless its req'd.

For a homeowner it is fairly easy to get a permit and certificate of inspection. This is a must do for insurance coverage. They may or may not ask for a blueprint for the work you intend to do. Drawing one out by hand is acceptable. Realize however that once an inspector arrives - your entire electrical system is open to scrutiny. Not just the work you do.

In a recent conversation with an ESA inspector I was told that changing out the service panel and/or mast would have to be done by a licensed contractor - its not allowed by the homeowner. However, he also told me a homeowner CAN INSTALL a sub panel. Go figure.
[/QUOTE]

 

[GreyGhost]

Well if someone wants to heat their garage quickly . . .

NEW DEWALT HEATER WITH WHEEL KIT

20 kW so it needs at least 100 A breaker (technically 104 A, but I have no idea if there is some flexibility if you are off by a few %). Also needs big ass wire (consult your friendly electrician, probably something like one to three gauge).

 

[Trials]

I have one of those 2 foot long kerosene heaters if anybody wants it ( free to any GTA rider )
to be honest that's about all they are worth unless you are working in a large open space. Fumes and heat off the thing are intense, noise is not nice either. It does run off a 15 amp circuit and a decent extension cord and consume expensive fuel at a horrendous rate. You could like open your garage door, sit the thing about 6 feet outside, aim it towards the garage and pretend you are working on a running helicopter.

I had to replace the transformer on it once, they are not terribly reliable construction,
dangerous as all daylights if you or your dog gets too close to the invisible flame, poof!

 

[MRR11.6]

I have one of those 2 foot long kerosene heaters if anybody wants it ( free to any GTA rider )
to be honest that's about all they are worth unless you are working in a large open space. Fumes and heat off the thing are intense, noise is not nice either. It does run off a 15 amp circuit and a decent extension cord and consume expensive fuel at a horrendous rate. You could like open your garage door, sit the thing about 6 feet outside, aim it towards the garage and pretend you are working on a running helicopter.

I had to replace the transformer on it once, they are not terribly reliable construction,
dangerous as all daylights if you or your dog gets too close to the invisible flame, poof!

I have a dewalt that runs on diesel, and yes it sounds like a jet running in the shop ! Keep it for emergencies ( to get a tractor warmed up enough to start when really cold ). You have to keep an eye on the mixture, just like in a furnace. I think this one is over 130000 btu's.
I have someone hold my beer when I start her up !

 

[Trials]

To thaw out a tractor I prefer a propane corn cooker although I have used a small controlled wood fire on a number of occasions

 

[MRR11.6]

To thaw out a tractor I prefer a propane corn cooker although I have used a small controlled wood fire on a number of occasions

Hear ya ! But in the shop it gets the whole machine warmer, like where my wrinkled old butt sets !

 

[Trials]

Heated floor you can sit or lay right down anywhere on the warm concrete.

... just got a call from my son-in-law his tractor froze up and stopped dead in mid driveway. He's about to find out how to thaw out a hydrostatic tractor.

 

[GreyGhost]

Heated floor you can sit or lay right down anywhere on the warm concrete.

... just got a call from my son-in-law his tractor froze up and stopped dead in mid driveway. He's about to find out how to thaw out a hydrostatic tractor.

Froze while running? Diesel? That's hard with gas.