Curbsiders
Car buyers who purchase vehicles privately and have fallen victim to a curbsider are not protected by OMVIC. Learn how to spot a curbsider!
www.omvic.ca
Ontario bill 139. Minimum $5000 fine for curbsiding.
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Heads up folks
- Thread starter Shaman
- Start date
www.omvic.ca
Ontario bill 139. Minimum $5000 fine for curbsiding.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
OMVIC. In 2016 I bought a few up unbranded bikes from Copart and Impact, cleaned up the scrapes, and sold them. Made a few hundred here and there. OMVIC called me, I told them I was a repair business, they said great…fix bikes but don’t be buying & selling bikes without a dealers licence… or else.
I had sold a Virago 250, a GL1500 and a Hayabusa inside 4 mos.
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Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
www.ontario.ca
Dirty Frank
Well-known member
You could flip two a year every year and not get any heat but don't be a George and sell hot messes with frame numbers stamped crooked and in the wrong font.OMVIC. In 2016 I bought a few up unbranded bikes from Copart and Impact, cleaned up the scrapes, and sold them. Made a few hundred here and there. OMVIC called me, I told them I was a repair business, they said great…fix bikes but don’t be buying & selling bikes without a dealers licence… or else.
I had sold a Virago 250, a GL1500 and a Hayabusa inside 4 mos.
Law Document English View
Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
For DEALERS.
OMVIC or the Ontario Motor Vehicle Dealers Act have no power over me... or you... or this guy, we're not dealers (I'M NOT, I doubt YOU are... THIS GUY??? who knows)
"curbsiding" in the context of those laws are dealers advertising or representing their cars as private sales.
From the motor vehicle dealers act, a person is a dealer who trades in motor vehicles. You cannot legally be a dealer without registering. Hence curbsiding is illegal as they meet the definition of a dealer and are not registered. You do not have to present yourself as a dealer to meet the definition.
Law Document English View
Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
www.ontario.ca
Ontario bill 139. Minimum $5000 fine for curbsiding.
I think you're confused. Under Bill 139, if you're a dealer you don't get fined $5000 for curbsiding.
*Because* you're a dealer...
So yes, if you're not a dealer, OMVIC has no power over you. But Bill 139 does.
I have bought and sold vehicles, you have bought and sold vehicles (I assume, we're on a motorcycle site talking about our motorcycles)... are we dealers? By your broad definition: YES
I dispute that
"Trade" is further defined in the dealer's act as: “trade” includes buying, selling, leasing, advertising or exchanging an interest in a motor vehicle or negotiating or inducing or attempting to induce the buying, selling, leasing or exchanging of an interest in a motor vehicle, and “trade” when used as a noun has a corresponding meaning; (“faire le commerce”, “opération”, “commerce”)"
We done that TOO
We done that TOO
Dirty Frank
Well-known member
That guy George that i spoke of was not and never was a dealer and he got at least one custodial and maybe two for curbsiding. He got plenty of warnings and a few fines first tho.
OK... lets try this: What would I, selling a bike privately, do to "curbside". What makes a private sale a "curbside" sale as opposed to a private sale?
Private sales are buyer beware, you have no protections... so how is a "curbside" private sale different from a not "curbside" private sale? What is the legal difference you want me to pay a $5000 fine for?
Private sales are buyer beware, you have no protections... so how is a "curbside" private sale different from a not "curbside" private sale? What is the legal difference you want me to pay a $5000 fine for?
Curbsiders
Car buyers who purchase vehicles privately and have fallen victim to a curbsider are not protected by OMVIC. Learn how to spot a curbsider!
www.omvic.ca
If you're a true private seller, the vehicle is registered under your name. You've paid all the taxes to put it in your name. You are not selling the vehicle from a business. You're not using a yellow mechanic's license plate to drive the vehicle. You provide a UVIP showing the current owner of the vehicle (you). You provide a bill of sale with your name and address on it.
If you're a true private seller, you are not buying and selling vehicles as a business. You have owned the vehicle for the purpose of using it, not for trading it.
From Niagara? Sells RZ parts on Ebay and Kijiji? He wasn't an OMVIC dealer, he was using his repair shop to sell bikes and he didn't go to jail for curbsiding... he got fined up the yingyang for selling bikes out of his repair shop... TWICE, he went to jail for not paying the fines after being ordered to by a court.
It was all pretty dumb, and avoidable... is the way I remember it
Dirty Frank
Well-known member
No a Windsor guy
If the OMVIC infractions list backdates enough you can check it listed his infraction as curbsiding with a custodial sentence as punishment.
If a fine was levied they simply would have garnished his wages if he was delinquent as he has a decent 9 to 5
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And here we have arrived at the crux of the issue
Nothing to do with OMVIC, or the Ontario Dealer's Act... it's about you paying taxes.
A "illegal" dealer is someone screwing CRA
Personal opinion:
If I am buying a used bike to use on the road, I see paying sales tax.
If I am buying a used bike that will never be on the road, I'm just gonna look at it... tax due? Why on a bike/car, not on a bicycle? or a Picasso? or a dirt bike that doesn't have an ownership? "Used" contributes nothing to GDP
Canada is cracking down on money laundering and cars/bikes are a great way to launder cash, and Canada is a world leader in laundering cash
and you thought Doug Ford was looking out for your consumer rights
Businesses can sell off vehicles as a private sale and not be a dealer
You're not getting a repair or dealer plate without a dealer or repair business license and a lot of insurance
UVIP is required for all personal sales
Bill of sale is the signed ownership, the ownership has name and address of seller
So... so far the only way a private sale can be a "curbside" is if the seller doesn't transfer the ownership and pay sales tax, where the only loser is sales tax collected
Anything else?
Call me an anarchist, but I'm OK with that... but more importantly to this discussion: it is of no concern of, nor fall under the purveiw of OMVIC, Ontario Dealer's Act or Bill 139... probably contrary to some tax law ... NO? Some tax law that you don't have to be a dealer to be prosecuted for... actually what would the charge be? It won't be "curbsiding", is "curbsiding" defined anywhere BUT OMVIC, Ontario Dealer's Act and Bill 139?
And the "protections" that Ontario vehicle registration provides seems not to be worth the paper it's written on
The UVIP has a disclaimer that Ontario will not be held liable for the accuracy of the information that you pay them to provide... from their databases
Your government working hard for you
The UVIP has a disclaimer that Ontario will not be held liable for the accuracy of the information that you pay them to provide... from their databases
Your government working hard for you
For most, I think it's pretty clear what the difference is between ownership of a vehicle for sale from a private seller vs. a curbsider.
If you're looking for a bike you contact the seller, get an address, go there to see the bike. The bike is at the person's home, running, plated and registered in his name, he has insurance and a UVIP. He has owned the bike for a period of time. If not, then alarm bells should be ringing and you'd want to know and reconcile the differences.
If you're buying bikes to fix them up and resell then its likely a question of volume. If you are doing 1 or 2 a year, the bike's in your name etc....... you can probably get away with it.
OMVIC helps to protect the public from unlicensed dealers who are often selling dubious vehicles. OMVIC also helps dealers limit competition from individuals who sell vehicles and have virtually zero investment in their businesses.
If you look at OMVIC's list of convictions you see a trend where the individual likely has multiple fines resulting from a trial or pleading guilty. I'd like to know more about how they got caught, who identified them to OMVIC and what period of time is represented by the individual fines, presumably a fine for each vehicle for sale at a point in time.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I believe the test is simple - buying and selling vehicles for profit.
Look this list over, it tell the charge and the outcome (guilt plea, conviction or suspended sentence). OMVIC usually levels one charge for every car one sold in the last year, there is very little pleading out in these cases. Look over the recent list of outcomes yourself:
Charges and Convictions
Review all dealers, salespersons or individuals charged or convicted since January 1, 2010.
www.omvic.ca
All it takes is a call from a disgruntled or remorseful buyer, competitor or just somebody you may have ****** off.
Iirc, there isn't an official limit they use but there are some unofficial guidelines. Something like keeping vehicles for at least 12 months and no more than three vehicles a year iirc? Now, if bitzz was liquidating his museum, I wouldn't be surprised if they came after him but hope they would be reasonable as one person selling their long-held private collection is not a dealer.I believe the test is simple - buying and selling vehicles for profit.
Look this list over, it tell the charge and the outcome (guilt plea, conviction or suspended sentence). OMVIC usually levels one charge for every car one sold in the last year, there is very little pleading out in these cases. Look over the recent list of outcomes yourself:
Charges and Convictions
Review all dealers, salespersons or individuals charged or convicted since January 1, 2010.
All it takes is a call from a disgruntled or remorseful buyer, competitor or just somebody you may have ****** off.
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