Hauling double trailer with Pick up?

oioioi

oioioi

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What are the legalities of hauling two trailers behind a pick up truck?

Say a Pick up trailer pulling a camper and the camper pulling a motorcycle trailer.

Is this allowed in Ontario with a standard pick up truck?

The pick up truck and the first trailer would NOT have a 5th wheel set up.

@PrivatePilot ???

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Apparently there is a gray area for things that are not "trailers". E.g. I have a cousin that towed a smoker behind his large camping trailer, and this is supposedly legal
 
In this case it would be a proper trailer with an ATV on it.
Originally said motorcycle to comply with the motorcycle HTA forum rules.
 
oioioi said:
In this case it would be a proper trailer with an ATV on it.
Originally said motorcycle to comply with the motorcycle HTA forum rules.
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Another question, what the bumper capacity on the trailer? you’re looking at hooking up the hitch to a bumper that’s not likely been strengthened for pulling
 
Not sure about here but these quite common in the US.
 
No longer legal in Ontario, been illegal a while now... 20yrs or so. One trailer per non commercial vehicle

TwistedKestrel said:
Apparently there is a gray area for things that are not "trailers". E.g. I have a cousin that towed a smoker behind his large camping trailer, and this is supposedly legal
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As long as the "thing" is self contained piece of equipment, it is not a trailer. A trailer carries stuff. So you can pull a smoker, or a compressor or a wood chipper or the like without a trailer permit/plate... I think the thing has to have a red light on the back and you have to be able to see the puller's tail lights
 
timtune said:
Not sure about here but these quite common in the US.
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I THINK most, if not all, states changed their laws the same time Ontario did.
These rule changes took a lot of race carrier setups off the road... you USED to be able to register a semi as a motorhome and pay next to nothing for registration and insurance... not anymore. Now the racer setup has to be registered the same as every other commercial semi with the same inspection schedule... it gets real expensive real quick
Remember when you wrote "NOT FOR HIRE" on the side of your truck and that was GOOD to register your truck as a passenger car? Ya can't anymore
 
On paper, it's not legal to pull more than one trailer unless you have a full class A licence.

If you look at the licence classes you'll observe the following:

- Only the class A licence specifies "Trailers", pluralized.
- Even class D specifies singular, specifically.
- The class AR (special heavy RV licence) even spells it out that double trailers are not allowed.

The clear point is that unless you have an A, no doubles. Some people argue that G is allowed to blah blah blah, but when presented with the stats specifically saying that both the D and AR are specifically disallowed, they don't have a response. It doesn't seem to require a rocket scientist to figure that if someone with a class D licence driving a gravel truck (for example) can't haul 2 trailers, that Joe Blow with his half ton and a class G can't either. But some people will argue it.

In reality? It's subject to random and inconsistent enforcement based on the officers knowledge of proper licence classes, and even how they're feeling that day. Or if they care. An MTO green hornet will care a lot more than an OPP might, for example, but I have seen the OPP with a pickup with 2 trailers pulled over, and I was also pulled over in the past when I used to do it.

Here was my setup.

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I got pulled over by an MTO on the 401. He thought he had me good until I presented my AZ licence. He even paced me out to see if I was legal length wise (6" to spare lol!) and sent me on my way. If I'd had a G I'd have been leaving my Jetskis on the side of the 401 and having to come back later.

Further to all this, doubles are not legal in lots of places as well, regardless of personal / recreational vehicle or commercial truck. Try driving into New York state with 2 trailers and see how far you get, for example....
 
Fun side fact: After seeing this debate endlessly online for years now I actually sent the following detailed email (click to expand the quote to read it all) asking for clarification on this exact topic to the Ministry of Transportation (Prabmeet Sarkara as well as Sydney Dubin who is listed as the "Manager of Communications", which I figured might be a worthy cc: to ensure that mulitple eyes saw my email) to once and for all get a response from the top.

I sent the email on August 20'th.

Received absolutely no reply.

Sent a reminder email on September 19'th.

No reply.

I just sent yet another email asking once again for someone to at least acknowledge my email. Sheesh.


The Honourable Prabmeet Sarkaria

Minister of Transportation, Ontario

cc: Sydney Dubin, Manager of Communications

Dear Mr. Sakaria;

I am writing seeking clarification regarding an issue that generates much debate on social media and various forums, particularly in those specific to the Recreational Vehicle community.

To preface the discussion, I am a class AZ licence holder who is active in the trucking industry, with almost 30 years experience. I am also an active recreational vehicle owner who travels extensively during my vacations, and on weekends.

The topic of towing multiple trailers often comes up in the recreational vehicle crowd and generates a great deal of confusion regarding the legality thereof.

There is a great deal of ambiguity and areas open to interpretation when it comes to licence classes and what is allowed with one class vs others which has led to a great deal of confusion, as well as a great deal of potential misinformation spreading online.

The main question remains, can someone with a regular passenger vehicle Ontario class G drivers licence pull more than one trailer legally in the province of Ontario?

When looking at the licence classes, the only class that specifically includes the wording "trailers" (as in multiple) is the class A licence. The class D licence is specifically only valid for a single trailer, and even the new class AR (A Restricted) licence which is aimed specifically at the recreational vehicle market goes so far as specifically mentioning that holders of this licence class may only pull a single trailer.

Yet as someone who spends a lot of time on the road, as well as somehow who follows a lot of RV discussion groups online and on social media, there are countless people who are not only pulling multiple trailers in a recreational configuration (typically a boat behind a camper), as well as continued insistence that this is perfectly legal with a class G licence.

Some report having even gone so far as speaking to MTO employees, and in one case, even an OPP officer, only to be told that hauling 2 trailers with a class G licence is perfectly legal.

This seems questionable in many respects, and certainly concerning is other respects, mainly due to a lack of training and related experience, but it also seems incredibly odd that the Ontario class AR licence, a licence which is specifically aimed at heavier and more complex RV's in the province of Ontario, and has a mandatory education component, specifically excludes pulling multiple trailers.

Citation:

https://drivetest.ca/licences/licences-overview/

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It seems counterintuitive that both the class D as well as the class AR, both licence classes that have special training and testing requirements are not allowed to haul multiple trailers, but reportedly many are being told doing so with a regular passenger-vehicle class G license is perfectly legal.

Unfortunately, when referring to the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, as many refer to when this debate comes up online, there is conflicting information that presents itself, leading once again to this never ending debate.

As a class A licence holder with an exemplary safety record and decades of experience including recurrent training and testing requirements, I find this rapidly increasing practice of "recreational doubles" being operated by class G licence holders concerning, given the lack of training and skills, especially when one only needs to observe many of these double trailer combinations actually out there on the road to often see that they are sometimes unstable, and the drivers are often unable to properly operate them when the need arises in tight quarters or challenging maneuvering situations such as tight corners.

I trust you will be able to clarify this matter once and for all, and the justifications and reasonings behind this being legal (in the face of the above realities), should that actually be the case.

If indeed it is not actually legal, it would be prudent to ensure that relevant law enforcement agencies are made fully aware of such, as based on what is being posted online, it seems evident that there are a lot of people being given bad information based on misinformed officers.

Thank you for your time.

--
Regards;
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@PrivatePilot
If someone has the AZ class license, is a 5th wheel required?
 
oioioi said:
@PrivatePilot
If someone has the AZ class license, is a 5th wheel required?
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There used to long ago be something in some MTO guide booklet or the HTA or something that did specify that any double trailer combination must have the lead trailer be a 5th wheel style hookup, but in looking for that wording again a year or two back during one of the last big fierce online debates about this topic, I couldn't find it anywhere anymore.

So in short, it's just another thing that nobody knows about for sure anymore because the whole mess is unclear and vague.

I still hope to get a response from the Ministry of Transportation that puts this to bed once and for all, but after almost 2 months I haven't even received the decency of anything more than an automated reply indicating they received the email, but no actual person can seem to be bothered to answer my question, or even acknowledge I'm alive.
 
TwistedKestrel said:
Apparently there is a gray area for things that are not "trailers". E.g. I have a cousin that towed a smoker behind his large camping trailer, and this is supposedly legal
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Does it have wheels and a hitch? Then it's a trailer. And it needs a trailer plate, and is considered a separate vehicle so far as combination is concerned. There is no grey area. Your cousin just never got caught is all.

This is a good example of "Just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true".. There is SO MUCH misinformation out there when it comes to double trailers in Ontario, outside of commercial tractor trailers of course.
timtune said:
Not sure about here but these quite common in the US.
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Not everywhere. Double trailers are not legal in many areas, and it gets even more complicated than that with some states allowing commercial doubles but needing a separate DL endorsement for recreational doubles (ie, Michigan), and places like NY allowing doubles on some sections of interstate like I90, but absolutely nowhere else, and not recreationally at all. Lots of other states and provinces disallow doubles completely.
bitzz said:
As long as the "thing" is self contained piece of equipment, it is not a trailer. A trailer carries stuff. So you can pull a smoker, or a compressor or a wood chipper or the like without a trailer permit/plate...
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Nope. The only exception, one time in the past, was "Road Building Equipment". This is where a lot of compressors and cement mixers and stuff used to be allowed to be able to towed without plates, or even lights in some cases. Most of those exceptions were terminated in 2017 which is why you'll see plates and lights on stuff now unless they're still (knowingly or unknowingly) trying to fly under the radar with the old rules, which will only fly until the wrong LEO sees it and cares enough.

Road-building machines

Find out which vehicles qualify as road building machines and learn about the requirements for commercial vehicles that no longer qualify.
www.ontario.ca www.ontario.ca
 
PrivatePilot said:
Does it have wheels and a hitch? Then it's a trailer.
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How about those large air compressors or welders or even concrete mixers?

I have seen many construction style compressors without plates. Especially in the fall as they are used for airing out sprinklers.

I even rented a post hole digger from HD without any plates.
 
The HTA currently defines a trailer as such:

Highway Traffic Act said:
“trailer” means a vehicle that is at any time drawn upon a highway by a motor vehicle, except an implement of husbandry, a mobile home, another motor vehicle or any device or apparatus not designed to transport persons or property, temporarily drawn, propelled or moved upon such highway, and except a side car attached to a motorcycle, and shall be considered a separate vehicle and not part of the motor vehicle by which it is drawn
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I'm not asserting that my relatives interpretation was correct, but he is a cop and a smart guy. He seemed confident that "device or apparatus not designed to transport persons or property" described the smoker. If you know of the language in the law that captures the smoker as a trailer, I would be curious to read it.
 
oioioi said:
How about those large air compressors or welders or even concrete mixers?

I have seen many construction style compressors without plates. Especially in the fall as they are used for airing out sprinklers.

I even rented a post hole digger from HD without any plates.
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See link about "road building equipment" above. A lot of the exemptions are closed but enforcement is near zich, as seems to be the cast with so many laws of our roads.

Things get muddier when you get into rental outfits like Uhaul and HD where the equipment may be registered in jurisdictions other than Ontario, to which reciprocity may apply. IE, you'll notice that all of Uhauls equipment is registered in Arizona where costs and requirements are much lower and looser and the whole Apportioned plates thing (it's a long story) means that they have carte blanche on a lot of things under commercial laws even though non-commercial vehicles are almost always what's actually pulling their equipment.

In short, more grey area, more open interpretation, more lack of enforcement on many things.

TwistedKestrel said:
I'm not asserting that my relatives interpretation was correct, but he is a cop and a smart guy
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If we had a dime for every time a cop interpreted the HTA in their own different way or based on their whims, we'd all be able to buy nice bikes. Look at 172 for example and how broad the interpretation of enforcement can be, speeding aside.
 
Ok. You seem pretty confident that it is a trailer. What are you basing that on? You say exemptions were closed in 2017. Where?
 
TwistedKestrel said:
Ok. You seem pretty confident that it is a trailer. What are you basing that on? You say exemptions were closed in 2017. Where?
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The open to interpretation part is "or any device not designed to transport persons or property" which is very vague. You'll see if you Google this that there's basically zero information out there further defining this, which leads to open interpretation by LEO's.

Farm implements do not require plates either, like a hay wagon. But a hay wagon can be used to haul bales of hay which are considered ones property. So, interpretation interpretation interpretation.

There's also a lot of special exemptions in the HTA for farming equipment, further muddying the waters. Is a compressor "farm equipment" if you're using it on a farm but not if you're using it to blow out pipes on a construction site? Is it then "road building equipment" as per my earlier link? Interpretation. Muddy waters.

In the end, I'm not an authority on the whole "certain trailers may or may not need licence plates" thing which isn't where this thread started, for the record so lets just leave that bit here. Who knows, I could be wrong, but the "persons or property" thing is just grey area extreme IMHO, and one LEO's interpretation may be different than anothers.

Just keep in mind that what I posted a few responses up about trailers that are registered to or under the jurisdiction of other areas/states/provinces may also had different reciprocal laws applied to them as well however - fun fact, the class 8 truck I drive at work has no rear plate which would be entirely illegal here in Ontario, but because it has Quebec plates (even though it hasn't been to Quebec in years) is perfectly fine as commercial trucks in Quebec only need a *front* plate. And passenger vehicles in quebec only need a *rear* plate and no front plate. And that too is legal here through reciprocity. And the whole "road building equipment" thing as well I linked to as well makes things even more muddy..
 

Towing | The Official Ministry of Transportation (MTO) Driver’s Handbook

The online version of the Ontario’s driver’s handbook. Use this book to study for your G1 driver’s licence, test your knowledge, and prepare for your Level 2 road test.
www.ontario.ca www.ontario.ca

Licence and permit​

You must have a valid driver's licence (Class G1, G2 or G) or higher class of licence to tow a trailer with a gross vehicle weight of up to 4,600 kilograms. If your trailer and load exceeds the size and weight specified in the Highway Traffic Act, you may need a higher class of licence or an oversize vehicle permit to tow it. For questions about the Oversize/Overweight Program, please contact the Ministry of Transportation’s permit office: by telephone 416-246-7166 or Toll-free: 1-800-387-7736 or visit the Oversize/Overweight Permit Office website.

It is against the law to tow more than one trailer behind non-commercial vehicles.


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