F3800RC
Well-known member
so you didn’t make any comments...have you written your MP Or The head of FSCO?
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Find a soft wall to bang your head against
- Thread starter nobbie48
- Start date
so you didn’t make any comments...have you written your MP Or The head of FSCO?
TK4
Well-known member
How could I have I commented when I didn't know the site existed ???
In the past I've contacted the CMA, MCC and MMIC - crickets....
F3800RC
Well-known member
You really need to use google and stop believing you know anything.
Here is a filed decrease of over 7 percent in 2005. ( yes it's 15 years ago but you will find more current decreases too over the last 10 years ) attached is
one from 2017 where some did ask for decreases ...there were actually some small filed decreases last year and over the previous years .i can google all day and find you more current rate decreases too but I encourage you to do your research and stop the ignorant comments. Educating you as you pivot from falsehood to falsehood is tiring .
https://www. FSCO confirms 1-Q auto rate declines
TK4
Well-known member
Listening to you pontificate from a position of vested interest is equally tiring.
The difference between you and me is that I'll admit to not knowing everything and ask for facts - which I did and you've provided.
Don't feel the need to waste any more of your time on me, I doubt anything fruitful will come of it.
In closing, let me ask you two questions:
1) Would you agree that we in the Province of Ontario are paying too much for motor vehicle (car and motorcycle) insurance ?
2) If you agree, and were King of the Forest, what would you do about it ?
That's it, I'm done - someone else can have a turn...
F3800RC
Well-known member
if you call being informed and educating a person who rants without any knowledge then yes I am pontificating, not from a point of vested interest but from facts.
1. no I don’t think we are paying too much based on ,circumstances, fraud, and the cost of claims. I will ask anyone who thinks we are paying too much to tell me what they think they should pay and how did they come up with that number. Because you have a feeling that It’s too much that doesn’t make it so, you said you like facts so again there are tons of facts if you google them about why insurance costs what it does.
2. if I could do something about it I would educate the public more that insurance is a good thing that allows you for a fraction of the cost of rebuilding your home , business or life to protect your assets and loved ones so stop hating it. And stop treating it like something you should always get your money back from. People think oh I spent x dollars on insurance so I need to put claims in and then they complain about the cost of insurance . Don’t let bodyshops charge more for the same work when an insurance company is paying the bill, don’t let your friends commit insurance fraud and cheer them on cause they are sticking it to a big company. And take on the biggest deductible you can afford to lower your premiums and take on more risk so that claims payouts would be lower and therefore premiums more stable. Insurance is for what you can’t afford to fix or replace not for nickle and dime stuff. These are the big problems that cause your premiums to go up . There is no secret formula , it’s dollars in and dollars out period . Also I would like people to want their insurance company to make money and be happy about it , do you want an insurer who makes no money and can’t pay your claim when you need it paid?
The last thing I will leave you with is math , think about the biggest claim you have had and then multiply the premium you paid over how many years it will take for the insurance company to get that money back . If you haven’t had a claim then think about friends or family that have .. insure a regular old house for a premium of let’s say 1500 and it burns down and now the insurer pays out hundreds of thousands to make you whole again, they will never get that money back from you. Now multiple those claims by the thousands , add in ice storms, foods , wildfires , class action lawsuits , catastrophic injuries and then see why it’s a massive cost to keep making people whole financially or physically again . That is why premiums are where they are.
But yeah sure everyone should pay 200 bucks for bike insurance ...
ricplayer
Well-known member
I see it differently.
Insurance companies are financial companies. If the business wasn’t good for them, they would get out. Some have, but that no indication of the health of the segment.
I have friends and colleagues in many parts of Canada and the US. Many pay much less to ride 12 months per year without a helmet than we do in Ontario with a comparable coverage and a riding season of 6-7 months. And this is comparing a $25k HD to my $5k Vstrom. Some colleagues have multiple bikes in larger cities than I live in, similar coverages, for half of what I pay for one bike.
Point is, we pay more in Ontario, period. Fraud etc should be none of the consumers concern, yet we are reminded by the industry regularly how bad it is. Their lobby is strong, and this argument helps their case and justifies the increases.
Both my wife and I have perfect driving records for over 10 years, not even a parking ticket, yet we received almost $2k in policy increases last year. This from a company we were with for years, we were good customers. Paid our bills on time and didn’t make claims. We both drive around 10,000 km per year (she commutes and I work in my home office). Same cars too.
And I’ve emailed my MPP, didn’t get a response back.
Insurance companies are financial companies. If the business wasn’t good for them, they would get out. Some have, but that no indication of the health of the segment.
I have friends and colleagues in many parts of Canada and the US. Many pay much less to ride 12 months per year without a helmet than we do in Ontario with a comparable coverage and a riding season of 6-7 months. And this is comparing a $25k HD to my $5k Vstrom. Some colleagues have multiple bikes in larger cities than I live in, similar coverages, for half of what I pay for one bike.
Point is, we pay more in Ontario, period. Fraud etc should be none of the consumers concern, yet we are reminded by the industry regularly how bad it is. Their lobby is strong, and this argument helps their case and justifies the increases.
Both my wife and I have perfect driving records for over 10 years, not even a parking ticket, yet we received almost $2k in policy increases last year. This from a company we were with for years, we were good customers. Paid our bills on time and didn’t make claims. We both drive around 10,000 km per year (she commutes and I work in my home office). Same cars too.
And I’ve emailed my MPP, didn’t get a response back.
My wife worked for a major insurance company for 30 years. Every day she would come home and relate another story of how they waste money. Employees spending more time texting and online shopping than working. Managers reading pocket novels on the job.
It is my responsibility to keep locks on my doors so I don't have multiple break-ins. Why do insurers get away with not mitigating fraud cases?
It is my responsibility to keep locks on my doors so I don't have multiple break-ins. Why do insurers get away with not mitigating fraud cases?
TK4
Well-known member
Privately run insurance companies (i.e. not government run like ICBC) have a primary responsibility to generate profits for shareholders - its a business, not a charity. How do they do that ? Three ways.
(1) Charging a premium, calculated by an actuary, based on property value (home, car, motorcycle, boat, etc.), geographic location (are you in a high risk area ?) and perceived risk (are you a bad driver ?).
(2) Investing that money for reasonable return.
(3) Paying out as little as necessary for claims - that's why they have adjusters and appraisers, to insure that they are paying out what the insured is entitled to and no more.
The problems come in when (I'm sure F3800RC will correct me again if I'm wrong) when:
(1) the actuary over or underestimates the perceived risk. If they guess wrong premiums may go up or down- mostly up.
(2) If there's a financial crisis (think 2008/2009) and there's a negative return on investment and then premiums go up.
(3) There's widespread fraud in the claims system that adjusters and/or appraisers can't or won't deal with and then premiums go up.
Why is there such a disparity when you go shopping for insurance ? Why are there so many people driving and riding dirty ? Why should it be the insured's responsibility to guarantee they are being treated fairly ? I don't have the answers to these questions, which is why a provincial inquiry is necessary and long overdue.
Bottom line, IMHO, is that insurance companies are not your friends - they are businesses that must generate reasonable profit to keep the doors open BUT must be held accountable for the often arbitrary natures of their actions. Demand change from your provincial government.
(1) Charging a premium, calculated by an actuary, based on property value (home, car, motorcycle, boat, etc.), geographic location (are you in a high risk area ?) and perceived risk (are you a bad driver ?).
(2) Investing that money for reasonable return.
(3) Paying out as little as necessary for claims - that's why they have adjusters and appraisers, to insure that they are paying out what the insured is entitled to and no more.
The problems come in when (I'm sure F3800RC will correct me again if I'm wrong) when:
(1) the actuary over or underestimates the perceived risk. If they guess wrong premiums may go up or down- mostly up.
(2) If there's a financial crisis (think 2008/2009) and there's a negative return on investment and then premiums go up.
(3) There's widespread fraud in the claims system that adjusters and/or appraisers can't or won't deal with and then premiums go up.
Why is there such a disparity when you go shopping for insurance ? Why are there so many people driving and riding dirty ? Why should it be the insured's responsibility to guarantee they are being treated fairly ? I don't have the answers to these questions, which is why a provincial inquiry is necessary and long overdue.
Bottom line, IMHO, is that insurance companies are not your friends - they are businesses that must generate reasonable profit to keep the doors open BUT must be held accountable for the often arbitrary natures of their actions. Demand change from your provincial government.
F3800RC
Well-known member
yes but they are your friends ...the pay to rebuild or replace your property and your life .
and there should not be amazing disparity in premiums nic the information used is the same . However if you are finding that there are massive differences in premiums from company to company then free market and competition is working and you should be happy with the price you get ,no?
If they are so concerned about our welfare why don't we have diminished value compensation?
Friends don't screw friends. If a person has multiple bikes and is the only rider why does the person have to pay full premium on every bike? They can only get hurt once. Base the rate on the most expensive bike.
In the even of an injury in a not at fault crash why does the owner of a vehicle have to pay for income replacement if they need more than $400 a week?
If insurance fraud is such a big deal, why is no one doing anything about it? Why is it okay to be lazy and ignorant and just pass the cost along in increased rates? If a business sees an increase in costs they have two options, increase the price they sell their product for or look for ways to decrease their costs. Why are insurance companies not looking for savings? Everybody gets raped in Ontario, if you think motorcycle insurance is bad try getting insurance for a transport truck.
People here complain, but when I compare ON vs QC rates, including the cost of the plate in QC (which includes the public half of the mandatory insurance coverage), the ON rate is cheaper. I pay 55 bucks a month here whereas I would have to pay 32 bucks a month + $633 public insurance contribution for my >400cc bike in QC.
Apples to apples.
Apples to apples.
Apples to apples because your sample size of one puts the cost here being less?
Who do you think pays more on average for one vehicle and one bike, someone in Quebec or Ontario?
They make you pay full premium on all the bikes because its a scam. They know the added risk of riding 2 bikes 5000km each vs 1 bike 10000km is essentially zero. So why do they do it? Because its free money for them.
My uncle in Northern Ireland insures 3 high CC (750+ cc) bikes for a total of $340 per year. This in a country whose riding season is practically 12 months of the year.
Serious changes need to be made in this province. 20% of the drivers/riders use 80% of the money paid to insurance companies.
Everywhere I look I see idiots on our roads. Its far too easy to get a license here. Punish people more heavily for licensing and insurance fraud.
After 2 at faults make people retake licensing, after 3 give them a 5 year ban. Make high risk drivers pay high risk premiums ($20K per year). Too bad if they cant afford it, take the bus.
No clue. This is a motorcycle forum. I guess my point was that cross-shopping provinces can be deceptive.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
There can be massive disparity in claims. For insurers this is a function of targeted markets and their ability to manage payouts (fraud controls, investigations, limitations etc). Free market -- nope, insurance in Ontario is not governed by free market economics, by definition it's a cartel with 3 collaborating players: FSCO (regulator), individual insurance companies, and the IBC (collective insurance association/lobby).
In a free market insurers would be able to craft a-la-carte offerings, competition would drive innovation, and new competitors would be permitted to enter the market.
TK4
Well-known member
RUI - is this you ? I've missed you from the CMG Online days.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Not sure what planet you're on my friend. FSCO published quarterly rate reports that are used to extrapolate the overall increases on premium costs. 2018 had a compounded rate increase of 9% over 2017, and same for 2018. At the end of 2019 rates in Ontario averaged 19% higher than 2017.
Specific FSCO Data on increased:
| Year | Q | Quarterly | Compounded |
| 2018 | Q1 | 2.23% | 2.23% |
| Q2 | 1.11% | 3.36% | |
| Q3 | 2.06% | 5.49% | |
| Q4 | 3.35% | 9.03% | |
| 2019 | Q1 | 2.70% | 11.97% |
| Q2 | 1.99% | 14.20% | |
| Q3 | 2.60% | 17.17% | |
| Q4 | 1.56% | 19.00% |
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