just to take this whole detour out of the equation: http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp6/pdfdocs/RAS_2011_Final_Version.pdf
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Fantasy licensing thread
- Thread starter LePhillou
- Start date
just to take this whole detour out of the equation: http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp6/pdfdocs/RAS_2011_Final_Version.pdf
Sativa Quemador
Well-known member
its not my problem if they dont speak the languages.
I wouldnt move to germany without leaning german
Many many issues ( and not just in Driving ) would probably be solved if everyone spoke french or english.
You have mentioned the two important groups which are causing the problem: individual drivers who are not taking responsibility for their mistakes because as humans we tend to have an over inflated perception of our abilities and the Ministry of Transportation which is overseen by politicians whose only goal is to remain in power therefore prevent programs from working properly.
Auditor General of Ontario in their reports states that in Ontario G1 Exit test pass rates vary from 51-93% depending on examination center. Driver Examiners with a pass rate of 93% aren't necessarily accepting bribes (they may be), but more likely they are incompetent or just don't care about their responsibility. MTO doesn't care about the reports because if they would make it more difficult to pass the licencing tests they would receive more complaints and politicians (their bosses) would receive backlash at time of elections.
In reply to the individual asking about the Collision Repeater Program and the Demerit Points Program people who are flagged for a review by a Driver Improvement Councillor are typically on the waiting list (for review) for more than two years at which time they come off of the list because they don't meet the criteria any longer (Auditor General's Report).
Driving examiners are a classic case of moral hazard. Look at Lindsay, they have a ton of staff working because they are the testing centre of choice for some of the GTA's worst drivers. If they stopped passing everybody with a heartbeat, fewer people would make the drive out there and half the staff would get the ax. It is in the examiners best interest to pass most of the people (minus a few so it's not obvious what's happening and to fundraise in slow periods by generating repeat customers).
- The test can only be written and presented in the official languages.
- You can only take a drive test at a facility within 20km of your address.
- Better class of license (i.e. if you're going to drive a 2 Ton suv, you're not doing your test in a smart car)
and then all the other stuff others have mentioned.
- You can only take a drive test at a facility within 20km of your address.
- Better class of license (i.e. if you're going to drive a 2 Ton suv, you're not doing your test in a smart car)
and then all the other stuff others have mentioned.
And here's why I put those points in, despite them being post-license; anyone can pass a test, if they put their mind to it. The biggest issue to me is that people learn how they're supposed to drive, pass the test, then throw everything they learned that they're supposed to do out the window after the first year on the road. You can make licensing as strict as you want to but if you don't enforce proper practice, you're pissing in the wind.
+5000 internets to you sir.
Used to be that you could only take the written test in the two official languages. If you did not speak English or French you would take the test orally by hiring an officially licensed by MTO translator (cost about $125). The oral test would be audio recorded so that the transaction could be checked later to determine if translator providing the answers rather than simply translating test. Currently the test is offered in many languages. Not a real big problem as North America and Europe are standardizing road signs (slowly); can be an issue with persons coming from other areas of the world.
It never made sense to me why they offer the test in other languages when the ROAD SIGNS we have are in English/French. I'm not talking about the pictograph signs with arrows, but all the construction and other signage.
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IMO this has the greatest potential. As it stands, if you don't speed or DUI there isn't much chance of getting a ticket. Therefore people don't realize there are other laws. If they started getting tickets for left turn into right lanes etc it might cause them to think that there just might be something else they're doing wrong.
Doesn't anyone do a proper stop at a stop sign anymore? (I rarely do BTW because I don't like being rear ended.)
Toronto Police routinely run blitzes on the ramp from York Street to The Gardiner westbound, to catch people who make right turns from the left lane on York, to the left lane of the ramp to The Gardiner. They catch a few but people are right back to doing it, blocking northbound turning traffic and creating a hazard, the very next day. Furthermore just a little to the east at Yonge, people are turning from the left lane on Yonge southbound to Lakeshore westbound. For some reason police enforcement in that area only ever seems to care about wide turners going from Lakeshore east to Yonge north in that area and even then, only very infrequently.
Make people guess where the enforcement is going to be. Less targeted sweeps and more general enforcement. Nail other people who do the same thing when police are still in the area but don't just sit in one spot, because they know there won't be anyone just one block over.
A couple of things:
As far as bribes, I only know of a couple of people who claimed to have bribe someone $100 to get their 365 back in the day. They still had to pass the road test, and didn't speak English when they first arrived in the Country.
Since there aren't any signs in French around the GTA, or English signs in Quebec, I don't see the point of making people have to know English or French.
People study, learn the rules for a few hours and then promptly forget them, much as they do on any other test. Forcing people to take refresher courses, isn't any better than the current system. All that will happen is that a cottage industry will grow supplying said courses to those who are uninterested in learning them. Some of the courses won't even require attendance.
There's already a giant cottage industry (second time I've said that), supplying advice and/or representatives to those charged with traffic offenses. Which way would these people lobby for any changes mentioned above in this thread?
There needs to be incentive for people to actually care about their driving, and realize that they're bad at it. There's a bit of a vicious circle right now. If there aren't any courses available in an area. I'm thinking of Winter Driving Courses, what incentive is there to work out a way to travel to take one? If there's no demand, then why have them.
Now if everyone here will just nominate me for Canada's Worst Driver, I can go and get a nice course under my belt. :d
As far as bribes, I only know of a couple of people who claimed to have bribe someone $100 to get their 365 back in the day. They still had to pass the road test, and didn't speak English when they first arrived in the Country.
Since there aren't any signs in French around the GTA, or English signs in Quebec, I don't see the point of making people have to know English or French.
People study, learn the rules for a few hours and then promptly forget them, much as they do on any other test. Forcing people to take refresher courses, isn't any better than the current system. All that will happen is that a cottage industry will grow supplying said courses to those who are uninterested in learning them. Some of the courses won't even require attendance.
There's already a giant cottage industry (second time I've said that), supplying advice and/or representatives to those charged with traffic offenses. Which way would these people lobby for any changes mentioned above in this thread?
There needs to be incentive for people to actually care about their driving, and realize that they're bad at it. There's a bit of a vicious circle right now. If there aren't any courses available in an area. I'm thinking of Winter Driving Courses, what incentive is there to work out a way to travel to take one? If there's no demand, then why have them.
Now if everyone here will just nominate me for Canada's Worst Driver, I can go and get a nice course under my belt. :d
Police Services in Ontario are so infuriating, they do something similar to that in our residential neighbourhood where they wait near an intersection (every three to four months) for 20 minutes looking for those that don't stop at the stop sign. I know that they (Police) are there because the drivers ahead of me stop at the intersection; typically I am one of the very few in my neighbourhood that actually stops. The drivers ahead of me as soon as they are out of the view of the Police Officer don't stop at the very next intersection (back to habits).
I don't understand why you find it infuriating if they actually catch people.
If they don't then you can start to understand the issues with the system.
If they hide, are they seen as just there gouging people?
I was caught making a left turn onto a street near Coxwell and Gerrard a while back.
The neighbors had complained to City Hall, which put up a sign, and then to the Police, when people ignored the sign.
I went and took photos, because neither of the signs were visible when I made the turn.
Anyway, I think that there should be more enforcement in areas where the locals have complained to City Hall and had dozens of stop signs installed. Basically, nail the locals for violations until they decide on keeping a more reasonable number of signs. But it doesn't work that way.
I find it good that they weren't just doing speed violations, as Rob has claimed most do above.
Right of way violations, are very threatening to motorcyclists.
Oh, and most likely, someonein your neighborhood is complaining to their Councillor for more enforcement.
And while they were ticketing you, they could have emptied a whole book at Yonge and Dundas in the pedestrian scramble.
When they aren't doing targeted speed enforcement, they're doing targeted turn enforcement. Or they're sitting at a light and ticketing people who block lanes. The issue is the very style of policing that leans heavily toward speed infractions and only seems to cover other issues, in targeted sweeps. There's a whole city out there and thousands of infractions. Sit in one fishing hole and everyone knows where you are. They don't have to worry.
You missed the point of my post: sitting in one spot for 20 minutes every few months is not going to do anything for traffic safety. When the first driver stops in a line of cars (at the stop sign) this forces everyone behind to stop. They then look around for the reason why the other driver stopped and notice the police and follow the rule. When they are faced with the next stop sign they are back to their standard operation.
Not most likely, someone in my neighbourhood is complaining I am "that guy".
Unmarked police vehicles on patrol are far more effective than sitting and hiding. The Police Officer can pick out the worst offender on that section of the road, follow them for a few minutes and in those few minutes observe multiple HTA violations. Most people (reasonable) when faced with three or more HTA infractions at one time are forced to change their driving style.
4-way stops are stupid, flat out. Take the road that has more traffic, and have that be the main road that doesn't stop at all. If you're on the perpendicular street, you get a yield sign. This means slow down, look; if something is coming, stop, if nothing's coming, go along on your merry way. As much as I hate pedestrians, they have the right of way, stop when one's in the intersection.
Coming to a complete stop each time in every direction is a waste of time and gas. Idiots throw up stop signs and traffic lights everywhere and then complain about congestion. If you want to stop stopping, stop stopping. At night time even the traffic lights should be put into hibernate mode, flashing green, don't stop, you have the right of way, flashing yellow, treat as a yield sign.
Coming to a complete stop each time in every direction is a waste of time and gas. Idiots throw up stop signs and traffic lights everywhere and then complain about congestion. If you want to stop stopping, stop stopping. At night time even the traffic lights should be put into hibernate mode, flashing green, don't stop, you have the right of way, flashing yellow, treat as a yield sign.
Politicians don't listen to engineers about speeds, road conditions or signs. They listen to the voters, who's 'Think of the Children' and 'Not in my backyard' attitude are to blame. They want a 30km/h zone with speed bumps through their arterial street, while they're the same person to blast down that street at twice the limit.
dasiffy
Well-known member
i'd like to see a seperate license for highways.
like the g2 never expires, but you can get a full G only if you want to.
then make the full G harder to get. which would allow the highway speeds to be increased.
The technology is available now where you could pull up to a testing centre, and they fit your car with a device that has accelerometers,gps,and cameras (four directions, plus one watching the driver).Then tell you to drive to a different testing centre. Once you show up, they take your device, download your data,and send you home.
Your data gets reviewed by computer software (eye tracking software,acceleration limits, rules of the road vs. actual GPS data), and then three days later, or however long it takes, you go back to the testing centre, and you find out if you pass or fail. Have an atm like kiosk, which reads your license and prints a checkmark or an X on your license (like a subways stamp card). One x demands an immediate retest. Two x's demands an immediate retest with a human and if you fail that, you have to start over (rewrite g1).
Have this "black box" test every year.
I also like the idea of a simulator. Once every five years maybe?
like the g2 never expires, but you can get a full G only if you want to.
then make the full G harder to get. which would allow the highway speeds to be increased.
The technology is available now where you could pull up to a testing centre, and they fit your car with a device that has accelerometers,gps,and cameras (four directions, plus one watching the driver).Then tell you to drive to a different testing centre. Once you show up, they take your device, download your data,and send you home.
Your data gets reviewed by computer software (eye tracking software,acceleration limits, rules of the road vs. actual GPS data), and then three days later, or however long it takes, you go back to the testing centre, and you find out if you pass or fail. Have an atm like kiosk, which reads your license and prints a checkmark or an X on your license (like a subways stamp card). One x demands an immediate retest. Two x's demands an immediate retest with a human and if you fail that, you have to start over (rewrite g1).
Have this "black box" test every year.
I also like the idea of a simulator. Once every five years maybe?
Sativa Quemador
Well-known member
i dont like any of these ideas. because you know that each and every one of them will end up costing the taxpayers a bundle
there is no reason we cant change the behaviours of drivers with existing resources. And the solution is easier than you think.
keep this is mind, this is only working off a thought, fine tuning could be worked out later.
In order to Obtain a DL, you need to pass a grade 12 reading/writing comprehension test written in English or French.
This knocks out drivers who cant read the Rulebook./ stop signs, street names, addresses, people you name it.
everything else can stay the same, Especially graduated DL.
Next part is on the cops.
we all see them, parked in parkinglots, usually 2 cars, just sitting there dog****ing. or one car sitting in an area generating income for the city ( speedtraps, seatbelts rolling stops )
Get these guys to PATROL the roads. pull over the morons that we all say " ****, theres never a cop around to see this, but they are always around the corner making sure im stopping completely ) Idiots the tailgate,dont signal, drive too slow, BAD drivers.
if THESE people got tickets, they would gain points and be sent off to driving school, and enter the Graduated program.
over time, this will weed out bad driving behaviour
there is no reason we cant change the behaviours of drivers with existing resources. And the solution is easier than you think.
keep this is mind, this is only working off a thought, fine tuning could be worked out later.
In order to Obtain a DL, you need to pass a grade 12 reading/writing comprehension test written in English or French.
This knocks out drivers who cant read the Rulebook./ stop signs, street names, addresses, people you name it.
everything else can stay the same, Especially graduated DL.
Next part is on the cops.
we all see them, parked in parkinglots, usually 2 cars, just sitting there dog****ing. or one car sitting in an area generating income for the city ( speedtraps, seatbelts rolling stops )
Get these guys to PATROL the roads. pull over the morons that we all say " ****, theres never a cop around to see this, but they are always around the corner making sure im stopping completely ) Idiots the tailgate,dont signal, drive too slow, BAD drivers.
if THESE people got tickets, they would gain points and be sent off to driving school, and enter the Graduated program.
over time, this will weed out bad driving behaviour
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