Failure to produce ownership/insurance...what do you guys think? | Page 3 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Failure to produce ownership/insurance...what do you guys think?

Can't agree with that. You have the right to due process and for them to prove that you are guilty.

OP has already admitted guilt:

"However, like an idiot, I didn't have my ownership and insurance under my seat for this ride. I know, I should know better. So I got two tickets for failure to produce ownership and Insurance."

This isn't a grey-area thing or a subjective call by a cop. He didn't have his docs. How does the conversation with the prosecutor go? What defense is presented to a judge?

 
OP has already admitted guilt:

"However, like an idiot, I didn't have my ownership and insurance under my seat for this ride. I know, I should know better. So I got two tickets for failure to produce ownership and Insurance."

This isn't a grey-area thing or a subjective call by a cop. He didn't have his docs. How does the conversation with the prosecutor go? What defense is presented to a judge?

Same defense as someone who forgot their wallet at home and couldn't show their license...
 
Same defense as someone who forgot their wallet at home and couldn't show their license...

My response was directed toward the notions of due process and "them" proving your guilt expressed by riceburner.

If the dude wants to take time off work and go to the prosecutor and see if he can reduce what is a pretty minor offense of absent-mindedness, that's cool. But guilt is not in question and, really, this shouldn't get to court.
 
There is a price to be paid to exercise this right.
If you go to court, plead not guilty and are found guilty, the result is generally a higher fine, possibly more points and the probability of higher insurance and even court costs.
Justices have very little patience with people who plead not guilty because they don't feel guilty.
If the facts say you're guilty then plead guilty.
The Justice or prosecutor then has the opportunity to reduce the fine.
All the way to a suspended sentence for a really good story.
However, if you feel my suggestions are a violation of your rights, take it to trial by all means.
 
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I've had this ticket before. I requested an early resolution (this option may not be offered to you) and it was tossed out when I showed the correct paperwork.
 
Three pages in and everyone has missed the obvious reason as to why you got the tickets. lol. For the sake of my argument I'll assume you took the picture before the officer wrote up the tickets. :p Keep your cell phone in your pocket. Don't take pictures. That's one sure fire way to rub a cop the wrong way.
 
OP and a few others who have chimed in, please permit me to give you some insights. First as has been explained "probable cause" does NOT apply to a traffic stop, in Canada. it is truly a "creation" of US style shows. ANY officer has the right anywhere in Canada, (Meaning it doesn't change between provinces), to stop a vehicle being operated on any PUBLIC road in Canada. This has been tested right up to the Supreme Court.

When "calling in" a traffic stop the officer does NOT provide a reason, (to the dispatcher), for the stop merely that he is stopping a vehicle and the plate number. The only person(s) the officer has to explain why he made the stop to are the driver being stopped, and his supervisor if the supervisor stopped and asked why the stop was made.

I too have gotten these same two tickets, while driving my cage to work at5 am on a Sunday. I knew the reason I was stopped was the time of day and that meant there would be a possibility that I would be impaired. I didn't question the officer, I was in the wrong as I didn't have the paperwork with me, (I had taken it out of vehicle as I was calling for quotes the day before). I simply went to first meeting with crown, he asked if I had the documents, I showed them to him he canceled both tickets, (Total time at court house was less than 30 minutes, had to wait my turn to be called).

Now OP, As an ex copper let me explain a FACT to you. Doesn't matter how polite and respectful you think you were being in questioning the officer, and "pointing out the relevant HTA sections" I can assure you the officer is well versed with the relevant HTA sections and doesn't require a refresher course from you. The reason for the stop given by the officer is one of those "discretionary violations" meaning it is based primarily upon the officer's "opinion". Your more than welcome to question his opinion, BUT as you discovered there will be a cost of doing so. Now in this case, the cost will be merely your time to attend the first meeting with crown to produce the documents. Your correct in your stated intentions of simply showing up let the crown do all the talking and produce the documents when asked to do so. I would strongly advise, (for others in the future), to not mention that it was BS that you had to miss time from work for this s hit etc, because the crown is under NO obligation to dismiss the charges.

Now you say you would have been happier if the officer had said I stopped you for a document check, and perhaps YOU would have been but experience has taught me MOST wouldn't and would demand "a better reason". So that "could" be why you were given the plate as a reason. The stop was not as you categorized it earlier "an illegal traffic stop"

I have been stopped and given a ticket for a seat belt violation, (there is a post on here about it). I KNEW I had my seat belt on, I knew the seat belt had been altered when the truck was customized by a previous owner in the USA. I could have argued the point on the side of the road with the officer. Instead I took the ticket when asked to show the officer if the seat belt worked I reached into truck and fastened it. I never said a word to the officer other than thank you have a nice day, and took my ticket. Before my court date I had the seat belt returned to the OEM position took photos. When I went to court I showed my evidence to the crown who showed it to the officer. They decided to withdraw the charge, the officer asked to speak outside of court, he asked why I hadn't told him that when he stopped me. I said because as a former copper I knew that meant you could have then tagged me for improper equipment and I had NO defence to that charge, I had a defence to the seat belt violation. Point is, even if you THINK your right best to shut up let the officer do as they will if you KNOW you have a defence then the place to present the defence is in court to the crown NOT roadside by questioning the officer, (Even if you think, and I can assure you it wasn't viewed as such, that your being polite and respectful). Does it suck to have to be quiet, and accept it, sure it does, and I say this having been on BOTH sides, as an officer and as the one pulled over.

Regardless of why you didn't have the documents when asked to produce them is not relevant at all. You are required to have them ready for inspection at ALL times, there is no just excuse, which is why the HTA doesn't say you must produce them "unless" XY and Z...lol

So in the end take the tickets and your documents to the crown and best of luck. Officers used to provide 12 hours to produce tickets, but the bosses said that created too much paperwork, let the crown do the extra step of withdrawing the charges etc. So no longer offered, (not a decision the officers made, just following a directive from higher ups).

As for the I was the only vehicle of 30 that were speeding that got stopped, the officer can't possibly stop all 30 and in reality with the high number of riders without proper insurance the cop is just "playing the odds" that he may end up getting more. Just as he/she would be more likely to stop a hopped up civic being driven by a 20 year old than he is by stopping a minivan with a soccer mom and 3 kids in the van. We seen a thread recently where a rider complained that an officer stopped two bikes moving at roughly the same speed for speeding, (I do agree with the argument that only one should have been ticketed), and the complaint was he can only radar or laser ONE vehicle so that is why only ONE vehicle gets stopped even if there are 30 on the road the alternative is to let everyone speed.
 
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I'm sure it isn't your intention, but you are making an excellent argument for photo radar.
30 cars speeding, all 30 cars get tickets in the mail.
 
I've had this ticket before. I requested an early resolution (this option may not be offered to you) and it was tossed out when I showed the correct paperwork.
Exactly. This doesn't have to be complicated people. Op, fight the ticket. It will never go to trial. Statesman, I hope you just take every ticket and go pay it. The rest of us know the insurance penalties and fight every one.

Sent from my Le Pan TC802A using Tapatalk
 
Iceman:
I am not advising people to just pay the ticket.
I am advising them that if they're guilty, plead guilty.
Also to take advantage of the pre-trial procedures.
The world is not black and white. The various shades of gray exist for a reason. Take advantage of them.
 
So I got pulled over tonight in what I can only describe as total Harrasment. I was riding in a group downtown and was the last rider. We were all riding responsibly and well within the speed limit. The cop pulls me over and tells me it's because my license plate "is not perfectly straight"

Now I know that my license plate is beyond legal. It is not tucked up under my tail, it is fully lit up, and has a SLIGHT upwards bend from the factory. Which actually makes it MORE visible from a cruiser.

I tell the officer the relevant HTA codes and explain that my plate is fully legal, and so I didn't get a ticket for it.

However, like an idiot, I didn't have my ownership and insurance under my seat for this ride. I know, I should know better. So I got two tickets for failure to produce ownership and Insurance

My question is, I will set up a meeting with the prosecutor, what do you guys think the chances are of this getting dropped? Does anyone have experience with something like this? Do they usually drop the charges once the documents are produced?

Thnx guys

Been down this road. The fine as written in the HTA is for not having proof of insurance. You can bargain that down with the CP if you can prove that on the date of the fine your bike was insured. Get a letter from your insurance company to that effect.

Failure to carry your registration is a much less costly fine. Not sure what the prosecutor will do with that.

It was the 1990s when I got this fine, the insurance one was initially substantial. I can't remember the amounts but I got a big reduction talking to the CP. Fine was initially like, $2000.
 
It was the 1990s when I got this fine, the insurance one was initially substantial. I can't remember the amounts but I got a big reduction talking to the CP. Fine was initially like, $2000.

That was the fine for not having insurance at all at the time. The fine amount got bumped up shortly after to $5,000 minimum to make the potential penalty much higher than the then range of ordinary annual insurance premiums. Some were calculating that it was cheaper to drive without insurance and risk a $2,000 fine IF caught than it was to pay a $2,500 annual insurance premium right up front.

That charge would have been laid with the idea being that if you actually did have insurance coverage in place at the time you were pulled over, the "no insurance" charge could later be reduced to a "failure to show proof of insurance" charge if you were able to show proof of insurance.

The fine for simply failing to provide proof of insurance back then was the same level of fine as failing to produce a driver's license.
 
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At least you didn't get a speeding ticket like I did today. I was doing 61 in a 50 zone, and a cop was hiding around a corner. Dinged me and pulled me over, despite the fact everyone else was doing 60.

The price we pay for being motorcyclists.


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This, i cannot believe.
 
Exactly. This doesn't have to be complicated people. Op, fight the ticket. It will never go to trial. Statesman, I hope you just take every ticket and go pay it. The rest of us know the insurance penalties and fight every one.

Sent from my Le Pan TC802A using Tapatalk

Nope, some of us know we are damned guilty, pay to play.

Never fought a ticket in my life, I have deserved EVERY one. I know the law and willingly broke it. So when caught I cannot fight it.

I've never had a trumped up ticket though, if I wasn't guilty I'd fight like hell.

OP is guilty.
 
Nope, some of us know we are damned guilty, pay to play.

Never fought a ticket in my life, I have deserved EVERY one. I know the law and willingly broke it. So when caught I cannot fight it.

I've never had a trumped up ticket though, if I wasn't guilty I'd fight like hell.

OP is guilty.

Im guilty of what? In this case the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I have paid to have my vehicle fully insured and registered. I simply did not have the paperwork to prove that fact. But I was riding legally. If you truly feel that I should not even make a 5 minute meeting with a prosecutor to demonstrate the fact that at the time I was indeed riding an insured and legal vehicle, then you need to go move to North Korea. You'd fit right in with your obedient attitude
 
Im guilty of what? In this case the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I have paid to have my vehicle fully insured and registered. I simply did not have the paperwork to prove that fact. But I was riding legally. If you truly feel that I should not even make a 5 minute meeting with a prosecutor to demonstrate the fact that at the time I was indeed riding an insured and legal vehicle, then you need to go move to North Korea. You'd fit right in with your obedient attitude

It doesn't matter how you try to rationalize or minimize it. If you did not have the registration and insurance paperwork with you to provide as required, then you were NOT riding legally.

meme does have a point. This has nothing to do with "North Korea" and everything to do with accepting personal responsibility for one's lapses. If you did it, own it.
 
Im guilty of what? In this case the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I have paid to have my vehicle fully insured and registered. I simply did not have the paperwork to prove that fact. But I was riding legally. If you truly feel that I should not even make a 5 minute meeting with a prosecutor to demonstrate the fact that at the time I was indeed riding an insured and legal vehicle, then you need to go move to North Korea. You'd fit right in with your obedient attitude

You are guilty of not producing proof of insurance and registration, which is required to operate a vehicle in this jurisdiction. That you want to use legal means to essentially beg forgiveness to reduce your penalty does not change the fact that you were guilty of not producing proof of insurance of registration when it was required to operate the vehicle you were operating at the time.

Whether you feel the punishment fits the crime is another story.
 
Im guilty of what? In this case the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I have paid to have my vehicle fully insured and registered. I simply did not have the paperwork to prove that fact. But I was riding legally. If you truly feel that I should not even make a 5 minute meeting with a prosecutor to demonstrate the fact that at the time I was indeed riding an insured and legal vehicle, then you need to go move to North Korea. You'd fit right in with your obedient attitude

You ARE guilty of the ticketed offence of not producing your paperwork.

The punishment initially "fits the crime" of a relatively small fine. It's insurance that screws us which has nothing to do with the ticketing system.

That being said, it doesn't hurt to try and fight it and hope it gets chalked up as an honest mistake.

Just imagine if everyone decided to drive/ride without paperwork because they felt like it is a hassle and doesn't want to bother with it. If the punishment isn't severe enough (Lets say $50, and that's it, no insurance hikes either), I doubt many people would bother with it on top of the off chance of being pulled over in the first place.
 
I have multiple vehicles and sometimes I get my insurance renewal when I haven't pulled my bikes from storage.
When I finally do get the bikes out of storage, I sometimes forget to bring my renewed insurance slip along.

Does any one know if an electronic copy i.e. picture of your insurance & ownership on your smart phone is valid if you're pulled over?
 
I have multiple vehicles and sometimes I get my insurance renewal when I haven't pulled my bikes from storage.
When I finally do get the bikes out of storage, I sometimes forget to bring my renewed insurance slip along.

Does any one know if an electronic copy i.e. picture of your insurance & ownership on your smart phone is valid if you're pulled over?

Original insurance slip is required (which is kind of weird because I've received "original" print outs), and a true copy (photocopy of front and back) of ownership is required.

You can always try pulling it up on your phone, but the cop is in no way obligated to use that info as proof.
 

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