PLau
Well-known member
It seems like the "Probable cause" to pull someone over is an American thing.
Cops lie because they can, and will most likely get away with lying. That being said, not all cops are the same.
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Failure to produce ownership/insurance...what do you guys think?
- Thread starter torontoZX6R
- Start date
It seems like the "Probable cause" to pull someone over is an American thing.
Cops lie because they can, and will most likely get away with lying. That being said, not all cops are the same.
FLSTC
Well-known member
post a photo of the rear of your bike. then we'll all give our opinion of BS or not. Even though the coppers might not need 'probable cause' I suspect they still need to call-in to dispatch and advise of a traffic stop for x reason. Maybe this is why used the plate. Or maybe your plate does look like a flipper plate.
But maybe best effort is how to get out of the tickets. There's been some good advice above how it depends upon the crown. I think they also have their win/lose quota to meet or even may have some personal beef about motorbikes. Maybe there's some strategy to help? Maybe paying a paralegal is worth avoiding two minor tickets?
But maybe best effort is how to get out of the tickets. There's been some good advice above how it depends upon the crown. I think they also have their win/lose quota to meet or even may have some personal beef about motorbikes. Maybe there's some strategy to help? Maybe paying a paralegal is worth avoiding two minor tickets?
sesamestreet
Well-known member
but the first thing the cop mentioned was the crooked plate, which was not a vald excuse according to OP. a photo with the red and blue lights reflecting off your plate can prove this.
PLau
Well-known member
When has a cop in/around the GTA been charged for harassment for pulling a vehicle over repeatedly?
It's already hard enough convicting an officer even knowing harassment has actually occurred.
Repeated offences of sexual harassment got an officer moved to a lower pay grade. For 6 months......
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...xual-harassment-records-revealed-records.html
What are the chances that a cop would be charged for pulling someone over repeatedly?
statsman
Well-known member
Are you required to have your ownership and insurance with you when you operate a vehicle?
Yes
Did you have them with you?
No
Are you guilty?
Yes.
If the cops can't get you for one thing they will get you for another.
Unless you were born yesterday you should know this.
And it's a rare event when a car, truck or motorcycle is operating 100% within the law.
When you go for the pre-trial I suggest a different approach.
Be polite but not subservient.
Don't quote the law, they already know it.
Above all, don't use words like harassment.
One person's harassment is another' due diligence.
Yes
Did you have them with you?
No
Are you guilty?
Yes.
If the cops can't get you for one thing they will get you for another.
Unless you were born yesterday you should know this.
And it's a rare event when a car, truck or motorcycle is operating 100% within the law.
When you go for the pre-trial I suggest a different approach.
Be polite but not subservient.
Don't quote the law, they already know it.
Above all, don't use words like harassment.
One person's harassment is another' due diligence.
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torontoZX6R
Well-known member
Did I ever once say that that would be my approach? Lol. I will not be mentioning the cop at all...I was just giving you guys some backstory and bitching a bit. I am obviously guilty, but thnx for the reminder. I will be making a first appearance with the prosecutor and being as polite as possible as I ask them to please forgive me on this one time mistake
Just to play devil's advocate . . . I wonder how that situation with the LEO would have gone had you gone with the same game plan.
torontoZX6R
Well-known member
That is exactly how I played it.
Told him its a new bike and I simply forgot to have it under the seat and I changed jackets. This is my first offence and if he could please offer me some grace in this instance it would never happen again. Then I said thank you and quietly sat in the curb
There are lots of nice cops out there and then there are some deep down *****. Sadly this one was the latter. And not because he gave me the ticket.
Anyways my question is does anyone have experience with getting these kinds of tickets dismissed by the prosecutor, spare the lessons on being a polite little boy
Riceburner
Well-known member
Take the info with you to first attendance. Whatever experience others may have had won't mean you'll have the same.
Ages ago you could just walk into the local division with the proper paperwork and the tickets would be cancelled. But I always have mine with me since.
Ages ago you could just walk into the local division with the proper paperwork and the tickets would be cancelled. But I always have mine with me since.
Those two infractions are, fact, completely retarded and utterly useless besides for cash cowing and wasting your time.
I don't know anything about police computers but I will make some assumption because if I am wrong, then our govt technology is even more out of date and straight up stupid.
Your ownership should be linked to your license or some kind of identification in a database. The cop should be able to pull the ownership up from simply searching your plate. The driver should show up (with a picture). Why the **** is this an infraction is beyond me because it should show up.
Insurance, on the other hand, is a little tricky. At some point you would have had to provide insurance for registration of the vehicle. The cop should see this from the previous information pull. Even if the insurance on record is out of date, it isn't hard to call the ****ing insurance company and confirm. If out of date, you can easily tell him what insurance company you are with and he can verify it. Why insurance and MTO aren't linked up is beyond me but govt IT has always been **** and underfunded (despite the fact that an efficient system would reduce long term costs exponentially).
Riceburner
Well-known member
Not the cop's job to be deep checking. But plate sticker validity does show up when they run your plates, so other stuff must be there too, especially ownership. Ins. is private and MTO public, so they shouldn't be connected.
statsman
Well-known member
The check would confirm that the ownership exists. If it's in the same name as the driver's licence, it shouldn't be a problem.
The police check would not show anything about insurance.
Yes, you had to have insurance to get the plate originally, but how long ago was that?
There is no guarantee that insurance is still valid.
There are a lot of uninsured vehicles on the road these days.
When you get your renewal sticker, you have to put the insurance company and policy number on the form.
But has anyone ever been asked to show their certificate at Service Ontario for a renewal sticker?
The police check would not show anything about insurance.
Yes, you had to have insurance to get the plate originally, but how long ago was that?
There is no guarantee that insurance is still valid.
There are a lot of uninsured vehicles on the road these days.
When you get your renewal sticker, you have to put the insurance company and policy number on the form.
But has anyone ever been asked to show their certificate at Service Ontario for a renewal sticker?
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At least you didn't get a speeding ticket like I did today. I was doing 61 in a 50 zone, and a cop was hiding around a corner. Dinged me and pulled me over, despite the fact everyone else was doing 60.
The price we pay for being motorcyclists.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The price we pay for being motorcyclists.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
kwtoxman
Well-known member
I wouldn't bother even trying to respond to or debate with the law and order Nazis on the forum here.They are well known, show major selective bias, are inflexible in their black and white world, and are a broken record.
Yes, many here will find your experience disappointing. Even driving around for 20 minutes one can see so much more illegal and unsafe driving behaviour to go after instead. It is what it is. To say your charge is low hanging fruit is far too kind, but on a bike always be prepared for all potentialities. There are all types of people out there, cops included.
Yes, many here will find your experience disappointing. Even driving around for 20 minutes one can see so much more illegal and unsafe driving behaviour to go after instead. It is what it is. To say your charge is low hanging fruit is far too kind, but on a bike always be prepared for all potentialities. There are all types of people out there, cops included.
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statsman
Well-known member
Is there selective enforcement by police, of course there is.
If you are one of 30 vehicles, all of which are speeding and you are the only one ticketed, of course it's unfair.
But when you get to court, this isn't relevant.
Each case is judged on its own merits or lack of merits.
You were speeding, you're guilty. Next case.
My advice to those who get a ticket is simple, if you are guilty don't plead not guilty.
All that will do is increase the fine.
Unfair, singled out, harassment are not defences in court, they are opinions.
The pre-trial procedure with a prosecutor is the best course of action in these circumstances.
The only time you plead not guilty is when you have a defence in law to the charge.
My wish is to save the members time, money and points.
If you are one of 30 vehicles, all of which are speeding and you are the only one ticketed, of course it's unfair.
But when you get to court, this isn't relevant.
Each case is judged on its own merits or lack of merits.
You were speeding, you're guilty. Next case.
My advice to those who get a ticket is simple, if you are guilty don't plead not guilty.
All that will do is increase the fine.
Unfair, singled out, harassment are not defences in court, they are opinions.
The pre-trial procedure with a prosecutor is the best course of action in these circumstances.
The only time you plead not guilty is when you have a defence in law to the charge.
My wish is to save the members time, money and points.
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Riceburner
Well-known member
Can't agree with that. You have the right to due process and for them to prove that you are guilty.
Bike Cop
Well-known member
If you're going to trial, you're going to trial on both charges, not just one. The carrot in this scenario is that if you plead to one, the other is withdrawn. If you start quoting your "rights" with the prosecutor, they will not offer you anything. You will wind up in a trial for charges you simply can't dispute. The prosecutor is a person too, and they've heard all of this dozens of times a day. I can't give legal advice, but you might be furthest ahead by producing the documents for inspection by the prosecutor and saying that you've corrected the problem.
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