ER closures and limited staffing

[otwo_91]

Nurses are paid less, work more, and carry higher levels of responsibilities, than cops, paramedics, firefighters & teachers. On an hourly basis police, paramedics, and firefighters earn 50% more / hr, teachers are double. Many nurses leave public health care for private care -- it's easy to get 50% more, and specialized nurses can get 3x what they can make in a hospital.

I agree nurses are seriously underpaid for what they have to do/deal with. The amount of nurses leaving the profession is crazy, and the ones staying in are wanting private/contract jobs because they pay more, have much less responsibilities and are more flexible.

Our government needs to address how little respect and money nurses get. Even when they are forced to work over time, the government halves their money in taxes anyways.

 

[GreyGhost]

I agree nurses are seriously underpaid for what they have to do/deal with. The amount of nurses leaving the profession is crazy, and the ones staying in are wanting private/contract jobs because they pay more, have much less responsibilities and are more flexible.

Our government needs to address how little respect and money nurses get. Even when they are forced to work over time, the government halves their money in taxes anyways.

Teachers are pushing for 11.7% raise. This is not going to end well. At some point there will need to be a reset as they are completely off the hourly rate deep end and most can't see it.

EDIT:
I was wrong. Custodians, ECE, Admin and bus drivers are pushing for 11.7%. Original comment still applies to teachers. ECE should make more imo. The others I have no idea what they make nor whether it is fair.

 

[Mad Mike]

It's easy to rant on teachers... they make it that way. I'd be satisfied with their current pay scale and pension benefits if the standard work year was 2000 hours - like most people are asked to work. Right now it's 1000 hours, about half.

 

[GreyGhost]

It's easy to rant on teachers... they make it that way. I'd be satisfied with their current pay scale and pension benefits if the standard work year was 2000 hours - like most people are asked to work. Right now it's 1000 hours, about half.

That's why I said hourly. Most conveniently are blind to the hourly rate they get and only focus on yearly while not realizing how few hours they work compared to most other jobs.

 

[Mad Mike]

That's why I said hourly. Most conveniently are blind to the hourly rate they get and only focus on yearly while not realizing how few hours they work compared to most other jobs.

I agree, the wage component alone is now $100/hour.

Firefighters are up there too. Like teachers it's hard to figure out ... 42 hours a week on average over 4 weeks, 1 day on one off, one on then 5 off made up of 24 hour shifts that include 12 hours of sleep and lunch breaks. Math works out to about 1040 hrs/yr at $100hr. Last year my city had 10 major fires (between 200k and 2m or more damage) and one st $20m. Price tag for fire services (250 staff) was $45million.

 

[GreyGhost]

I agree, the wage component alone is now $100/hour.

Firefighters are up there too. Like teachers it's hard to figure out ... 42 hours a week on average over 4 weeks, 1 day on one off, one on then 5 off made up of 24 hour shifts that include 12 hours of sleep and lunch breaks. Math works out to about 1040 hrs/yr at $100hr. Last year my city had 10 major fires (between 200k and 2m or more damage) and one st $20m. Price tag for fire services (250 staff) was $45million.

I agree that fire is paid too high (easy metric is look at list of competent applicants vs available positions, IIRC fire is about 100:1). It's disingenuous to focus just on fires though. They spend most of their "working" time at crashes and medical calls. They are the grunts called on to manage traffic, gain access or do heavy lifting (among other jobs that require more training and experience). Fire makes up a very small component of what they are asked to do.

 

[Georg3__]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-general-hospital-critical-care-alert-1.6539372

About 45 UHn staff are calling in sick everyday currently …

Queue foreign workers, kind of, who don’t care as much about bill 124.

 

[mimico_polak]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-general-hospital-critical-care-alert-1.6539372

About 45 UHn staff are calling in sick everyday currently …

Queue foreign workers, kind of, who don’t care as much about bill 124.

What do you expect? Our nurse friend this weekend wasn’t granted a day off until the last minute.

‘We need you on Monday’
‘I’m away at Pinery’
‘Sorry. No time off.’
‘Ok cool, expect a sick call on Sunday night’
‘Time off request granted’

If people aren’t allowed to schedule time off, they’ll just call in sick.

 

[Georg3__]

What do you expect? Our nurse friend this weekend wasn’t granted a day off until the last minute.

‘We need you on Monday’
‘I’m away at Pinery’
‘Sorry. No time off.’
‘Ok cool, expect a sick call on Sunday night’
‘Time off request granted’

If people aren’t allowed to schedule time off, they’ll just call in sick.

Government should do better

 

[Evoex]

It's easy to rant on teachers... they make it that way. I'd be satisfied with their current pay scale and pension benefits if the standard work year was 2000 hours - like most people are asked to work. Right now it's 1000 hours, about half.

Waiting on [mention]jc100 [/mention]to enter the arena.

 

[GreyGhost]

Waiting on [mention]jc100 [/mention]to enter the arena.

Prof is a very different role to the teachers being discussed. Most are fundamentally academics (create published papers) with a side order of teaching.

 

[Evoex]

Prof is a very different role to the teachers being discussed. Most are fundamentally academics (create published papers) with a side order of teaching.

Don’t step on my dreams okay!

 

[mimico_polak]

Government should do better

Don’t think you’ll find an argument against this case anywhere.

 

[GreyGhost]

Don’t think you’ll find an argument against this case anywhere.

Other than from politicians. They may say the words but have zero interest in the associated actions.

 

[ReSTored]

I worked in Ontario healthcare, as well as in 2 other Provinces for about 40 years prior to retirement. The healthcare "system" is enormously complex and operates in silos. If anyone is expecting innovation or comprehensive planning and then execution of a plan from government in general, or the Ford government in particular, you're completely SOL. This government couldn't design a proper replacement license plate and it is completely clueless as to how to address and resolve the present staffing crisis. In relative terms, on a 1 - 100 scale, license plates are a 1 or 2 and health care is 100 (more likely 110). Expect meaningless slogans, announcement of money thrown at the problem, direction to others to do something, finger pointing at the Feds ect....... Real solutions, system redesign, re-engineering, accepting accountability etc.......... there will be nothing offered because they have nothing.

 

[nobbie48]

Thanks for the clarification @ReSTored. That lines up with what our nurse friend said also. 'The population is getting older, and there's nowhere for these people to go. So they come to the hospital and wait for a spot, or wait to die as their families can't, or won't, take care of them at home.'

It's a sad state of affairs, and embarrassing, for a government to let their population age in such a manner. There should be outrage over unspent billions, and wasted billions, on frivolous electioneering projects instead of dealing with the aging population.

But that doesn't get people riled up, it doesn't sell papers, and it sure as hell does not affect anyone ... until it's their turn.

The government can't stop people from aging but the manner in which they age is also subject to decisions of the people. How many people shop til they drop and when they drop they haven't a nickel in their pocket to help themselves. Oh the government will pay for it, ignoring the fact that no government wants to raise taxes. It scares away the voters.

A cheap motel room is $100 a day, clean linen, towel and little bar of soap. No PCW.

An Alzheimer patient needs to be spoon fed because many wouldn't know to eat if you put a plate of food in front of them. Then there's the hygiene and physio. Three to four hours a day for the PCW. $$$

Good food requires a kitchen and staff. $$$

People haven't a clue how much stuff costs especially when the government is in charge.

A cousin had a Molly Maid franchise and would get calls from widowers saying their wife died a few months ago and the house is a mess. "How much for a weekly cleaning?

They are flabbergasted when they find people don't work for $5 an hour.

People do not realize there is no such thing as government money. It's taxpayer money, yours and mine, that goes to fix problems that shouldn't exist. Is it fair that responsible people have to cut pleasures from their lives to pay for the care of someone who spent faster than they earned.

I'm not anti socialism but the "I deserve" crowd is out of touch.

It's probably too late but we need to educate people about reality. However that would destroy the economy.

 

[nobbie48]

Yup. See this everyday.

Many of these folks should be going into long term care homes but not enough money in the system

FIFY

EDIT. IIRC Georg3_ is having finding an affordable house. How would he and other like him feel if taxes were raised substantially to pay for better LTC?

Owning a home is some form of assurance of sustainability in later years. No home, no sustainability and you become part of the growing problem.

 

[GreyGhost]

The government can't stop people from aging but the manner in which they age is also subject to decisions of the people. How many people shop til they drop and when they drop they haven't a nickel in their pocket to help themselves. Oh the government will pay for it, ignoring the fact that no government wants to raise taxes. It scares away the voters.

A cheap motel room is $100 a day, clean linen, towel and little bar of soap. No PCW.

An Alzheimer patient needs to be spoon fed because many wouldn't know to eat if you put a plate of food in front of them. Then there's the hygiene and physio. Three to four hours a day for the PCW. $$$

Good food requires a kitchen and staff. $$$

People haven't a clue how much stuff costs especially when the government is in charge.

A cousin had a Molly Maid franchise and would get calls from widowers saying their wife died a few months ago and the hose is a mess. "How much for a weekly cleaning?

They are flabbergasted when they find people don't work for $5 an hour.

People do not realize there is no such thing as government money. It's taxpayer money, yours and mine that goes to fix problems that shouldn't exist. Is it fair that responsible people have to cut pleasures from their lives to pay for the care of someone who spent faster than they earned.

I'm not anti socialism but the "I deserve" crowd is out of touch.

It's probably too late but we need to educate people about reality. However that would destroy the economy.

Food in LTC is <$10/day/person. It's amazing that they can make that work. I'm not sure if that is just consumables or if it labour. I'm pretty sure capital costs are not included in that number.

On a related note:

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[nobbie48]

Orng flies a route from Hamilton to TO almost constantly moving people . It’s a busy service .

Yes to everything MM typed in his replies to the group .

My wife is 1 yr off pensioning out . 30+ yrs paediatric specialty, labour & del, was part of the IV team and a trainer, did patient transfer flights . She will work 8 seconds past her deadline to grab her coffee mug. She could teach , or do any amount of contract work , but she will dead head geraniums at Terra nurseries instead. So F’d over by the province it’s truly sad .


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Is the situation in medicine all that different than industry?

In both cases there are the God's with golden parachutes that serve their masters, either shareholders or taxpayers. Hold the line on costs.

At the bottom are the labourers who do what they are told to do. Fix machine A or fix machine B. Tend to patient in room 101 or tend to patient in room 207. Can't do both.

In between lies a middle management position that has to merge the needs with the funds. Pull rabbits out of hats and every time they do so, the ones at the top expect bigger rabbits. It pays a little extra but you are the fall guy.

The people the can best do the job have decades of experience and retirement is within sight. Is it worth it?

A lot are saying no, so the positions are filled with newbies that can't cope and make things worse. They get thrown under that bus. Donald Trump: "I gave him a chance but he was a loser."

 

[nobbie48]

I agree that fire is paid too high (easy metric is look at list of competent applicants vs available positions, IIRC fire is about 100:1). It's disingenuous to focus just on fires though. They spend most of their "working" time at crashes and medical calls. They are the grunts called on to manage traffic, gain access or do heavy lifting (among other jobs that require more training and experience). Fire makes up a very small component of what they are asked to do.

A lot of firemen have side gigs such as fences, decks painting. Adds a lot to the income. If you need more time to finish a gig you do a time trade with a fellow fireman.