So whats the dealio with front to rear linked braking systems? How would that factor into this discussion? Do they compromise emergency braking?
Emergency braking
- Thread starter cbcanada
- Start date
Brakes are only linked when ABS is present, so that the rear can't be locked even while the rider focuses solely on applying brakes at the lever (which is exactly what people are proposing as a basic riding principle).
So there isn't 0% braking at the rear? Very interesting.
Well-designed linked braking systems should improve emergency braking, and in some cases, by a considerable amount. A well-designed linked braking system should recognize the rider's intent but apply a proportioned amount of the brake on the other wheel and do a much better job of proportioning front/rear braking than most riders could do on their own. By "recognizing the rider's intent" ... If you apply the front brake lever, it will put more brake bias to the front but add in a bit of rear when appropriate but not enough to lock the rear. If you apply the rear brake lever, it will put more brake bias to the rear but add some front - but the rear will still lock first, as that would be the rider's intent by applying the rear brake. A rider who jams on the rear brake will still lock it, but also get a decent amount of front braking and thus, much better stopping than a locked rear brake alone.
Honda has a couple of different designs for linked braking systems - and the differences are telling. All of them have separated circuits in the front brake calipers with one of those circuits tied to the rear brake circuit, so that when you apply the rear brake, it applies front brake proportionally. The systems used on the touring bikes (Gold Wing, VFR, etc) have another circuit in the front brake tied to the rear brake through a proportioning valve, so that front brake gives you a bit of rear ... but these are longish, heavyish (and expensive!) bikes. The CBR250 system, on the other hand, has the same setup for the rear brake, but applying the front brake only applies the front ... no tie-in to the rear. Short, light bike ... more weight transfer, rear brake is not used when the front brake is applied because under hard braking, any amount of rear brake at all would try to lock the rear.
Modern ABS systems are capable of applying brake independently of rider input ... every automotive stability-control system does exactly this, and many cars (including mine) have electronic brake proportioning as part of the ABS system. It's conceivable that bikes with ABS could do something similar electronically, without requiring the complex front/rear hydraulic interconnects that the Honda LBS systems use. They COULD do this, it's technically feasible (and rather straightforward), but I don't know if any of them actually do it.
edit: I seem to recall that some newer bike ABS systems do it when ABS actuates. Front and rear are separately commanded as usual as long as they are both below the ABS threshold. If front wheel goes into ABS mode then it applies rear braking. If rear goes into ABS mode then it applies front braking. ABS logic is applied at both ends no matter what, so the wheel receiving "uncommanded braking" still won't lock ... it's just adding more braking to compensate for the rider not doing the right thing.
Honda has a couple of different designs for linked braking systems - and the differences are telling. All of them have separated circuits in the front brake calipers with one of those circuits tied to the rear brake circuit, so that when you apply the rear brake, it applies front brake proportionally. The systems used on the touring bikes (Gold Wing, VFR, etc) have another circuit in the front brake tied to the rear brake through a proportioning valve, so that front brake gives you a bit of rear ... but these are longish, heavyish (and expensive!) bikes. The CBR250 system, on the other hand, has the same setup for the rear brake, but applying the front brake only applies the front ... no tie-in to the rear. Short, light bike ... more weight transfer, rear brake is not used when the front brake is applied because under hard braking, any amount of rear brake at all would try to lock the rear.
Modern ABS systems are capable of applying brake independently of rider input ... every automotive stability-control system does exactly this, and many cars (including mine) have electronic brake proportioning as part of the ABS system. It's conceivable that bikes with ABS could do something similar electronically, without requiring the complex front/rear hydraulic interconnects that the Honda LBS systems use. They COULD do this, it's technically feasible (and rather straightforward), but I don't know if any of them actually do it.
edit: I seem to recall that some newer bike ABS systems do it when ABS actuates. Front and rear are separately commanded as usual as long as they are both below the ABS threshold. If front wheel goes into ABS mode then it applies rear braking. If rear goes into ABS mode then it applies front braking. ABS logic is applied at both ends no matter what, so the wheel receiving "uncommanded braking" still won't lock ... it's just adding more braking to compensate for the rider not doing the right thing.
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In an emergency braking scenario, there is 0% braking at the rear. The rest of the time - when not emergency braking- application of rear rakes just leads to a bad habit when one has to stop in a panic.
cbcanada
Banned
so you are saying that you ride with or know cruisers that prefer to use the rear and actually stay away from the fronts?
What's wrong with that ?
In MSF, we were practicing emergency braking on a rainy day, and I was constantly locking the rear on the CBR125. When I swapped the bikes and got on the cruiser, I was then locking the front all the time.
cbcanada
Banned
well read the last few post and find out.
ofcourse on a rainy day you should use the rears but aside from bad road grip conditions and u turns and parking lot manuvers , you stick to the fronts
Dude, all you read on this thread is based under the assumption of a sports bike or at most a regular motorcycle, and def not for the cruisers. That's a whole different chapter.
cbcanada
Banned
you are wrong. infact with the less steep rake angle in a cruiser you can get on the fronts in a more comfy manner.
i have a sports and a cruiser. fronts are the best for both
Interesting info. I will def give fronts more power next time I get on a cruiser. Again, my experience on cruisers limited to a few hours in a parking lot during MSF =)
Sure...
you then go on to say they should use the rear brake softly under certain circumstances......talk about conflicting messages.Use both brakes as a matter of course so that they know how the rear performs.
Immediate reaction is to get on the front brake anyway and being comfortable on both gives them the added stopping power.
At least you qualified it by talking about surfaces and maybe all you ride on is perfect pavement with wonderful stick.
The real world isn't like that, it's wet, gravelly, leaf littered, rough, potholes with train tracks and the clumps of mud from the construction truck that just went by.
Keeping people from being afraid of their front brakes is an admirable goal as they are the major anchor.
However the rears are there for a reason and should be used from the get go and I'm content that the gov safe riding find the same thing my 45 years on a bike confirm.
Know how to use both brakes and use them regularly.
and even on your perfect pavement....
and you won't learn to do this unless you use both brakes when you are riding.
The bike used was a Bandit 600S.
Funny, when I "emergency brake" or crap my pants my reaction is to hit the breaks, both of them. Go off a racetrack or off the road at 160km/h and try using your front break only, it won't end well. Learn to use your breaks, both of them, they're a valuble tool.
I try and avoid breaks when riding prefer to stay in one piece. But sometimes I do like to take a break and get a coffee.
Griffin
Well-known member
No one I ride with, no. People I've talked with, particularly new cruiser riders, have said they've been told by their "experienced" friends that the front brake is a hazard and should not be used. They are also advised to lay the bike down to avoid a collision (which is insane, but there ya go).
There are some interesting analyses of cruiser crashes that hypothesize that many (most?) are caused by locking the rear brake. Something that's very easy to do in an emergency.
Sometimes I've given these new riders some food for thought (I explained physics to them) and advised that anytime you are slowing something down, weight transfers to the front. Braking is an element of friction which is increased with weight, ergo, front brakes are far more effective, on ANY vehicle (well, except perhaps dragsters), than rear brakes.
But, as is evidenced in this thread, facts and physics are useless in convincing people that "know" what they're talking about.
I sea whut you done their...
I was taught to smoothly apply both breaks while firmly gripping the bike. Once at a complete stop, check behind you while simultaneously "stomping down" the gears to first.[/QUOTE]
Dave, you're right to a certain degree. If emergency stopping, apply both brakes, smoothly and progressively, clutch in and tapping down at the same time all the way to first gear while emergency braking. Being in first gear when completely stopped will allow you to get out of the way just in case the car or truck behind you is not stopping quick enough. Keep knees hugging the tank and arms slightly relaxed, don't want any unnecessary inputs on the handle bar while emerg braking...
Dave, you're right to a certain degree. If emergency stopping, apply both brakes, smoothly and progressively, clutch in and tapping down at the same time all the way to first gear while emergency braking. Being in first gear when completely stopped will allow you to get out of the way just in case the car or truck behind you is not stopping quick enough. Keep knees hugging the tank and arms slightly relaxed, don't want any unnecessary inputs on the handle bar while emerg braking...
no wonder when i see some cruiser riders stop, it doesn't look so smooth and more like a herky jerky stop...lol
