Does Toronto actually have a plan?

[nobbie48]

All of the above thoughts have merit but a short sighted voter could be worse than a non voter.

I think about taking a our year old to a bakeshop and asking what cookie he would like. You describe the different ones, oatmeal with fiber and protein from nuts, a Welsh miner with all the healthy ingredients, a buttery traditional shortbread, peanut butter etc.

He wants the one with red icing.

The economics of today are so harsh that the the truth for many is unpalatable. If a person in underwater with their mortgage and job and the marriage is about to explode they don't care if the sewers will need major work in two years instead of minor work now. Right now their credit card is maxed, they have to take money from their kid's piggy bank for food and hitch a ride to work because the car is out of gas.

It's taken a big part of a century to dig the debt hole we're in. The difference between digging post holes and debt holes is it's easier to dig debt holes than it is to fill them in.

 

[Mad Mike]

How do we implement a quorum system so nothing gets changed without an over 50% total vote?

We had the problem when running an annual general meeting at our condo. Certain changes needed more votes than were present.

How do we implement mandatory voting? Fines or rewards?

Does it help?

The disgusting abuse of power we see at all levels of government has too many people disillusioned to the point of apathy. "You can't fight city hall"

If you want to get people out to the voting booth, ask them to pay for all the things they voted for... pay right now. One of the biggest challenges the public faces with socialist governments is they use debt, invisible taxes, and reserves to pay for the goodies. Some day it runs out and you face a budget crisis -- I think Toronto is getting near that.

If Torontonians simply paid the same property tax as their neighboring municipalities, they would be swimming in cash.

A $1.5M house on the North side of Steeles currently pays $1500/year more in property tax than the same house on the south side of the street.

If they did that, the 50% or so of the population that lives in their own home would get quite excited about voting!

 

[Mad Mike]

...

I don't think there's a good / proper way to 'force' people to vote. Only the governing party can do that by giving out free candy like there's no tomorrow...as people don't want the gravy train to end, so they'll keep voting.

Just ask voters to pay for the promises - now. If Canadians were presented with fully costed plans with balanced budgets, they could decide what they want, and what they need.

 

[nobbie48]

If you want to get people out to the voting booth, ask them to pay for all the things they voted for... pay right now. One of the biggest challenges the public faces with socialist governments is they use debt, invisible taxes, and reserves to pay for the goodies. Some day it runs out and you face a budget crisis -- I think Toronto is getting near that.

If Torontonians simply paid the same property tax as their neighboring municipalities, they would be swimming in cash.

A $1.5M house on the North side of Steels currently pays $1500/year more in property tax than the same house on the south side of the street.

If they did that, the 50% or so of the population that lives in they own home would get quite excited about voting!

Market value has nothing to do with the cost of servicing a property. If both houses are the same size and lot size the tax comparison is more relevant. Economies of scale and corporate / industrial taxes also affect rates.

The taxes on my industrial condo were close to my slightly larger house (Square footage) with no garbage pick up and no representation on counsel.

It costs X dollars to maintain a street. 200 feet of frontage can represent six houses or 100 condo units. Plowing costs are the same.

Development fees: Where is there room in Toronto for a major project?

 

[GreyGhost]

Development fees: Where is there room in Toronto for a major project?

Lots of places. They are mostly redevelopment not greenfield though.

Did you see the news articles on 25 St Marys Street? TL: DR 280 unit apartment building being demolished to be replaced by two 50 storey towers. One day an article comes out about the deal the councillor negotiated for displaced tenants being the gold standard that others should strive to meet, the next day articles about the tenants refusing to leave their homes and wanting to die in place. Many tenants believe that occupying a space gives them perpetual rights over that space. That is a very dangerous path which if cemented in law would mostly eliminate long-term rentals as no landlord wants to have hard limits on what they can do with their property.

 

[nobbie48]

Lots of places. They are mostly redevelopment not greenfield though.

Did you see the news articles on 25 St Marys Street? TL: DR 280 unit apartment building being demolished to be replaced by two 50 storey towers. One day an article comes out about the deal the councillor negotiated for displaced tenants being the gold standard that others should strive to meet, the next day articles about the tenants refusing to leave their homes and wanting to die in place. Many tenants believe that occupying a space gives them perpetual rights over that space. That is a very dangerous path which if cemented in law would mostly eliminate long-term rentals as no landlord wants to have hard limits on what they can do with their property.

I was thinking of the ones where places of employment are leveled to make room for subsidized housing for unemployed workers.

 

[GreyGhost]

I was thinking of the ones where places of employment are leveled to make room for subsidized housing for unemployed workers.

That's a whole different mess. Brampton has long battled provincial policies that require xx jobs/hectare for employment lands. The companies that are willing to locate in brampton are mostly logistics companies with far fewer jobs/hectare. Brampton can build as many logistics facilities as they want and they will all be bustling but if they build offices to meet the letter of the law, they sit empty. More employment on paper, much less in practice.

 

[Mad Mike]

Market value has nothing to do with the cost of servicing a property. If both houses are the same size and lot size the tax comparison is more relevant. Economies of scale and corporate / industrial taxes also affect rates.

The taxes on my industrial condo were close to my slightly larger house (Square footage) with no garbage pick up and no representation on counsel.

It costs X dollars to maintain a street. 200 feet of frontage can represent six houses or 100 condo units. Plowing costs are the same.

Development fees: Where is there room in Toronto for a major project?

Costs for operating a city are not granular enough to look at the cost of maintaining 200' of street. My point is Toronto taxpayers are not shouldering the costs of the local gov't they voted for. Easy fix is to adjust taxes upward to balance the budget.

As for dev fees, these are part of the problem. Toronto collects $700M a year in development charges -- and that's increasing annually. It's really a tax as they don't spend that to facilitate development. A huge chunk -- billions -- sits in reserves that can be used for plans they haven't dreamt up yet. Dev charges are about $135K for a semi-detached house, $115K for a 2br apt, and $80K for a studio apt - this gets passed along to the purchasers.

 

[GreyGhost]

Costs for operating a city are not granular enough to look at the cost of maintaining 200' of street. My point is Toronto taxpayers are not shouldering the costs of the local gov't they voted for. Easy fix is to adjust taxes upward to balance the budget.

As for dev fees, these are part of the problem. Toronto collects $700M a year in development charges -- and that's increasing annually. It's really a tax as they don't spend that to facilitate development. A huge chunk -- billions -- sits in reserves that can be used for plans they haven't dreamt up yet. Dev charges are about $135K for a semi-detached house, $115K for a 2br apt, and $80K for a studio apt - this gets passed along to the purchasers.

Toronto stepped up the Ponzi game with their land transfer tax grab. Now with slowing sales, that cashflow disappears. If they just set property tax appropriately (and ideally spent appropriately), they wouldn't need gimmicks and what are essentially special assessments on property transfers.

 

[LePhillou]

The way cities and gta suburbs are built, single family houses will never cover their "fare share" of the taxes to maintain the roads (among other things).
The municipal budget heavily depends on development and subsidies from higher gov't levels (whether it be gas tax or other taxes), i think last time i added up the numbers for road re-development and maintenance, about 1/3rd came from gas tax and another 1/3rd came from taxes and the rest came from other subsidies and development fees. It's all information available online if you take 15 minutes to look it up.

A lot of cities rely on infinite growth in order to cover most of the budgeting costs.
Now on top of taxes not covering costs, a lot of it we could say is "mismanaged" by not having a holistic plan to tackle issues at hand. It's all about pandering to specific voter bases instead of making the right choices for everyone. So we lose even more money on building and undoing things because theyre werent built right.

and to address the "conservative vs liberal council" question..... cities are always more geared towards left than right from what i've seen in history.

It's suburbs and "country folk" that will end up voting more towards the right. They don't need subsidized services as much so it's not in their interest.

 

[Mad Mike]

The way cities and gta suburbs are built, single family houses will never cover their "fare share" of the taxes to maintain the roads (among other things).
The municipal budget heavily depends on development and subsidies from higher gov't levels (whether it be gas tax or other taxes), i think last time i added up the numbers for road re-development and maintenance, about 1/3rd came from gas tax and another 1/3rd came from taxes and the rest came from other subsidies and development fees. It's all information available online if you take 15 minutes to look it up.

A lot of cities rely on infinite growth in order to cover most of the budgeting costs.
Now on top of taxes not covering costs, a lot of it we could say is "mismanaged" by not having a holistic plan to tackle issues at hand. It's all about pandering to specific voter bases instead of making the right choices for everyone. So we lose even more money on building and undoing things because theyre werent built right.

and to address the "conservative vs liberal council" question..... cities are always more geared towards left than right from what i've seen in history.

It's suburbs and "country folk" that will end up voting more towards the right. They don't need subsidized services as much so it's not in their interest.

Funding cities is complicated. They have only partial control of their income -- they collect some, and charge fees for other things, but rely on transfer payments to and from 2 (sometimes 3) other levels of government. We have a progressive funding model much like many taxes in Canada. Wealthier people with real-estate assets pay more of the city's tax burden than those with less means.

Toronto spends a lot more than it collects, there are only 3 options to solve this:

1. Improve operational efficiency so dollars go further,
2. reduce service costs to match funding, or
3. raise revenues (taxes) to cover their planned expenditures.

As for left and right in councils, I would agree it's common to see more left in bigger cities. But that's not always the case, Look at Vaughan, Markham, Burlington -- all cities with relatively conservative councils decent infrastructure, and balanced budgets.

 

[ReSTored]

As for left and right in councils, I would agree it's common to see more left in bigger cities. But that's not always the case, Look at Vaughan, Markham, Burlington -- all cities with relatively conservative councils decent infrastructure, and balanced budgets.

When you look at the mil rate in Toronto compared to other ON cities it is very low. The cities you reference vs. Toronto are not really an apple to apples comparison. Toronto infrastructure is more complex, certainly far older and many of the residents in Markham, Vaughan and Burlington are commuting to Toronto to work, as does a fair number of people in the GTA as a whole. Per capita, Toronto also has more income disparity and more social services issues to deal with. IMO tax residential tax rates in Toronto are too low and should be increased, but good luck with that...........

This table is from an article in 2022

Property Taxes by Province in Canada: Highest to Lowest

Property taxes in Canada explained; the various rates, how to calculate, and why they may vary from city to city

www.nesto.ca

Provinces	Residential Tax Rate	Taxes for your home’s assessed value of $250,000	Taxes for your home’s assessed value of $500,000	Taxes for your home’s assessed value of $1,000,000
Ontario
Toronto	0.599704%	$1,589	$3,178	$6,355
Burlington	0.81519%	$2,038	$4,076	$8,152
Ottawa	1.06841%	$2,671	$5,342	$10,648
Mississauga	0.82348%	$2,059	$4,117	$8,235
Waterloo	1.10785%	$2,770	$5,539	$11,078
Kitchener	1.12975%	$2,824	$5,649	$11,297
Hamilton	1.26196%	$3,155	$6,310	$12,620
Guelph	1.17125%	$2,928	$5,856	$11,713
London	1.35082%	$3,377	$6,754	$13,508

 

[justride]

Who lives in London.....
What is the city doing with all that money?

 

[TK4]

When you look at the mil rate in Toronto compared to other ON cities it is very low. The cities you reference vs. Toronto are not really an apple to apples comparison. Toronto infrastructure is more complex, certainly far older and many of the residents in Markham, Vaughan and Burlington are commuting to Toronto to work, as does a fair number of people in the GTA as a whole. Per capita, Toronto also has more income disparity and more social services issues to deal with. IMO tax residential tax rates in Toronto are too low and should be increased, but good luck with that...........

I for one wouldn't mind paying higher property taxes IF (and it's a big one) the province and the feds kicked in their fair share.
Doug's sitting on a bag of money and he won't, J.T. is so lost in the ozone nothing will change until he's gone.

 

[TK4]

Who lives in London.....
What is the city doing with all that money?

Lotsa people - let's send them some of our homeless.

 

[GreyGhost]

Who lives in London.....
What is the city doing with all that money?

Until recently, average house price in London was far far lower. Average property tax per residence may not have been too far off the others. London is also incredibly spread out, that drives up costs of almost everything.

 

[Malks]

And who voted them in ?

The same idiots who are responsible for JT!

 

[TK4]

The same idiots who are responsible for JT!

And Dougie - idiocy knows no boundaries.

 

[Mad Mike]

Lots of places. They are mostly redevelopment not greenfield though.

Did you see the news articles on 25 St Marys Street? TL: DR 280 unit apartment building being demolished to be replaced by two 50 storey towers. One day an article comes out about the deal the councillor negotiated for displaced tenants being the gold standard that others should strive to meet, the next day articles about the tenants refusing to leave their homes and wanting to die in place. Many tenants believe that occupying a space gives them perpetual rights over that space. That is a very dangerous path which if cemented in law would mostly eliminate long-term rentals as no landlord wants to have hard limits on what they can do with their property.

Past gov'ts tilted the balance in favor of tenants through regulation and policy and over time that's led to many of the challenges we have now.

Rent controls killed off major developers from building rental stock decades ago -- there is no business model that perpetually fixes revenues without regard for costs. Now they build condos, passing the landlord headaches to small landlords.

Those small landlords stepped up and created thousands of rental spaces only to find ever-tightening regulations tilted the scales of fairness to the point where being a landlord has become too risky.

It's not just legislators and policymakers, special interests, have largely misinterpreted fair regulation as entitlements that can be gamed in the interest of social justice. Rent strikes, promoting rent holidays during COVID eviction moratorium, coaching deadbeat renters on how to game, and jam up the LTB with frivolous claims in an effort to cheat the man.

Doo-gooders are shooting their own feet off now. There is near zero growth in rental stock as landlording is too risky, small landlords are evicting tenants at alarming rates so they can replace them with less risky family members or AirBnB renters.

There needs to be a rebalancing of tenant rights and landlord rights. You're seeing the start of that as the province step in to dismantle rent control, remove the roadblocks to redevelopment, and eliminate as many of the disincentives to investment and landlording as they can -- all while leaving reasonable protections in place for tenants.

 

[Mad Mike]

Who lives in London.....
What is the city doing with all that money?

Ever been to London? It's only use to me is a convenient place for a leak when driving between Toronto and Windsor.

My last employer had a large operation there, it reminds me of what the Shwa, Hammer and Keswick used to be - only more homeless and drug zombies.