Covid economy non real estate

[crankcall]

I wish I had the skills to have a laptop and create . I envy those that can type a living.
While with my actual job , the biggest thing I pick up all day is a pencil, any time I was offered side money was for actual work, hanging a door, changing out windows, build a deck, and lately sort out and rig running rigging for race boats , all those intricate splices you see on dock lines and halyards , hitec line like kevlar and dyneema , but is all manual labour. Which I like and feel is rewarding.
But its all for people that make money , typing on a laptop and cant do actual work work. LOL

 

[xfactor]

I got my degree not from UW and the salary differences from my non UW friends and UW friends is massive.

Yea, I can imagine. It wasn't that case before. Most of my friends are UW, I'm UofT and we had guys starting at the startup in those days from Brock and whatever, the diff wasn't that much. Now, you have a direct route to anywhere and most of the people I know in norCal know about UW, not as hot as Stanford or MIT, but it's up there. So, lot more traction for the school for sure.

 

[Lightcycle]

I got my degree not from UW and the salary differences from my non UW friends and UW friends is massive.

Part of it is the name of the University. But UW also has a co-op program, which gives you 2 years of practical work experience upon graduation. That alone commands a salary bump over a non-co-op grad with 0 relevant experience.

No summers off for co-op though: back-to-back work/school/work/school semesters for 5+ years. But you do graduate with 0 student debt, which is nice.

 

[xfactor]

Part of it is the name of the University. But UW also has a co-op program, which gives you 2 years of practical work experience upon graduation. That alone commands a salary bump over a non-co-op grad with 0 relevant experience.

No summers off for co-op though: back-to-back work/school/work/school semesters for 5+ years. But you do graduate with 0 student debt, which is nice.

True, but I feel like Queens and some others are getting into the co-op game. I think it's more of a trenched and incumbent grads who are in the hiring position. Like amongst likes and connections to the alumni scheme helps also to further the UW branding.

 

[油井緋色]

Software salaries went up insanely. Mine went up 250%; also got a random raise, more vacation time, and a decent bonus for no reason after swapping companies 8 months in.

There was a post on reddit that explained why. A dev friend forwarded it to me so I forwarded it to others; we forced management for raises or we gtfo. Any good management agreed (market price), the ones that didn't found themselves stuck with subpar fob (fresh off boat, not necessarily Asian) developers because the key players quit. Honestly felt great because it equalized the power difference and forced flat structure for management.

The company I'm working for now is still short on developers. The supply of good developers is still grossly below demand.

I got my degree not from UW and the salary differences from my non UW friends and UW friends is massive.

I got mine from college; literally spent years being laughed at by other Asian parents and my own. I have no problem rubbing it in their face now lol

Your degree doesn't matter once you have a job or two. The interviews are the same: show the computer you can solve the problem, within an acceptable time, with acceptable runtime speed, and battery of tests. The next interview is a systems design whiteboard where you are asked some ludicrous question like "design a Facebook"; you're now competing against others in the interview who passed the computer filter. If you get in, your penis is bigger than theirs and you won lol

 

[Lightcycle]

True, but I feel like Queens and some others are getting into the co-op game. I think it's more of a trenched and incumbent grads who are in the hiring position. Like amongst likes and connections to the alumni scheme helps also to further the UW branding.

Yep, at my old department at Big Blue, 90% of the workers there were UW grads.

It's not so much of an alumni/old "boys" network, more of a "you know what you're getting when you hire a UW grad because you are a UW grad" kind of situation.

 

[xfactor]

Software salaries went up insanely. Mine went up 250%; also got a random raise, more vacation time, and a decent bonus for no reason after swapping companies 8 months in.

There was a post on reddit that explained why. A dev friend forwarded it to me so I forwarded it to others; we forced management for raises or we gtfo. Any good management agreed (market price), the ones that didn't found themselves stuck with subpar fob (fresh off boat, not necessarily Asian) developers because the key players quit. Honestly felt great because it equalized the power difference and forced flat structure for management.

The company I'm working for now is still short on developers. The supply of good developers is still grossly below demand.



I got mine from college; literally spent years being laughed at by other Asian parents and my own. I have no problem rubbing it in their face now lol

Your degree doesn't matter once you have a job or two. The interviews are the same: show the computer you can solve the problem, within an acceptable time, with acceptable runtime speed, and battery of tests. The next interview is a systems design whiteboard where you are asked some ludicrous question like "design a Facebook"; you're now competing against others in the interview who passed the computer filter. If you get in, your penis is bigger than theirs and you won lol

I want to see the whole college system removed from the higher learning. It would be nice if we had technical schools and research schools. It's silly to do an undergrad in CS and then do business programming as a life choice. I don't need to learn OS fundamental to code out some labour forecasting module or some other crap.

As for where you go to school shouldn't matter as far as technical prowess. You go to certain schools whether Upper Canada College or Harvard for the lifelong connections you will make to propel yourself to the next level.

 

[油井緋色]

As for where you go to school shouldn't matter as far as technical prowess. You go to certain schools whether Upper Canada College or Harvard for the lifelong connections you will make to propel yourself to the next level.

I really appreciate the FAANGs for their interviews trickling down to non-FAANGs because you're right: why does one's degree matter? This is a skill based field: we're either faster or slower, know the concept or don't, can perform or not. And it's very easy to quantify.

 

[油井緋色]

I wish I had the skills to have a laptop and create . I envy those that can type a living.
While with my actual job , the biggest thing I pick up all day is a pencil, any time I was offered side money was for actual work, hanging a door, changing out windows, build a deck, and lately sort out and rig running rigging for race boats , all those intricate splices you see on dock lines and halyards , hitec line like kevlar and dyneema , but is all manual labour. Which I like and feel is rewarding.
But its all for people that make money , typing on a laptop and cant do actual work work. LOL

I'm assuming your age by saying this but you're lucky that you're likely old enough to retire before the robots come in full force. They will come, and I am 100% for automation.

Why pay workers when you can pay a few engineers to design some robots to work 24/7? They don't have feelings (people cause drama and are harder to manage), they're going to perform exactly as programmed without variance, and the work a few engineers produce will create an infinite fleet of robots, easily updatable via firmware. We all know training or repurposing people is very hard.

COVID also did a hilarious thing where many are permanently working from home (software devs.) This will certainly trickle down to more traditional roles such as accountants where they just need a computer and VPN. I haven't been in an office since 2019. My manager, in his late 40s, hasn't been in an office since his 30s apparently.

...it's not exactly all roses and sunshine though: my stress is through the roof lmao

 

[Relax]

I'm assuming your age by saying this but you're lucky that you're likely old enough to retire before the robots come in full force. They will come, and I am 100% for automation.

Why pay workers when you can pay a few engineers to design some robots to work 24/7? They don't have feelings (people cause drama and are harder to manage), they're going to perform exactly as programmed without variance, and the work a few engineers produce will create an infinite fleet of robots, easily updatable via firmware. We all know training or repurposing people is very hard.

COVID also did a hilarious thing where many are permanently working from home (software devs.) This will certainly trickle down to more traditional roles such as accountants where they just need a computer and VPN. I haven't been in an office since 2019. My manager, in his late 40s, hasn't been in an office since his 30s apparently.

...it's not exactly all roses and sunshine though: my stress is through the roof lmao

I was under the impression that domestic software developers were an endangered species. I've heard lots of stories of students graduating and not being able to find work because they're competing with offshore developers working for a much lower wage/rate. But at some point, you do need domestic senior developers that you can "trust", and I'm not sure how they can develop into seniors if nobody's hiring and grooming them.

 

[Evoex]

Software salaries went up insanely. Mine went up 250%; also got a random raise, more vacation time, and a decent bonus for no reason after swapping companies 8 months in.

There was a post on reddit that explained why. A dev friend forwarded it to me so I forwarded it to others; we forced management for raises or we gtfo. Any good management agreed (market price), the ones that didn't found themselves stuck with subpar fob (fresh off boat, not necessarily Asian) developers because the key players quit. Honestly felt great because it equalized the power difference and forced flat structure for management.

The company I'm working for now is still short on developers. The supply of good developers is still grossly below demand.



I got mine from college; literally spent years being laughed at by other Asian parents and my own. I have no problem rubbing it in their face now lol

Your degree doesn't matter once you have a job or two. The interviews are the same: show the computer you can solve the problem, within an acceptable time, with acceptable runtime speed, and battery of tests. The next interview is a systems design whiteboard where you are asked some ludicrous question like "design a Facebook"; you're now competing against others in the interview who passed the computer filter. If you get in, your penis is bigger than theirs and you won lol

Good to see you, don’t be a stranger.

 

[xfactor]

I was under the impression that domestic software developers were an endangered species. I've heard lots of stories of students graduating and not being able to find work because they're competing with offshore developers working for a much lower wage/rate. But at some point, you do need domestic senior developers that you can "trust", and I'm not sure how they can develop into seniors if nobody's hiring and grooming them.

There is a subtle difference between Software development and programming. Even though there is a huge offshore component to the work, it's not the same as far as the quality of things you get.

Any programmer sitting anywhere should be able to code out whatever you need as long as your requirements are very tight. But it's interpreting what some squishy management human type sitting in some office wants that needs to get translated to working solution. The key is to interpret that and get it wrong as soon as possible and that's just not easy with an offshore model.

As a software engineer, the bread and butter of your skill is mostly to interpret the right requirement to functional design/code, where programming is just solving a technical problem. Saying that, I hate offshore resources. 3/10 are excellent, but you waste your time with the 7/10 resources.

Here is the perfect pic of what it's like:

 

[油井緋色]

Good to see you, don’t be a stranger.

Thanks dude. Had to take a break from all social media: was absorbing too much garbage lol

I was under the impression that domestic software developers were an endangered species. I've heard lots of stories of students graduating and not being able to find work because they're competing with offshore developers working for a much lower wage/rate. But at some point, you do need domestic senior developers that you can "trust", and I'm not sure how they can develop into seniors if nobody's hiring and grooming them.

I've mentored a few coops and juniors. They did not need dev training, only business requirements and, as mentioned above, guidance or shielding from clueless management requests. Those devs you spoke to, as blunt as this sounds, objectively suck as devs if they can't find a job.

To further @xfactor's comments: we outsourced to Ukraine for a mobile app. We have an extremely competent Russian mobile junior dev who just graduated. When we got the app back, the Russian taught me how much Russians hate Ukrainians lol. The code is complete ****, bug filled, and barely functional. However, we got 5 devs for $50k. 5 devs in house is $500k/year.

Poor Russian tho; he's gonna be swearing for a few more weeks everyday lol

 

[GreyGhost]

Thanks dude. Had to take a break from all social media: was absorbing too much garbage lol


I've mentored a few coops and juniors. They did not need dev training, only business requirements and, as mentioned above, guidance or shielding from clueless management requests. Those devs you spoke to, as blunt as this sounds, objectively suck as devs if they can't find a job.

To further @xfactor's comments: we outsourced to Ukraine for a mobile app. We have an extremely competent Russian mobile junior dev who just graduated. When we got the app back, the Russian taught me how much Russians hate Ukrainians lol. The code is complete ****, bug filled, and barely functional. However, we got 5 devs for $50k. 5 devs in house is $500k/year.

Poor Russian tho; he's gonna be swearing for a few more weeks everyday lol

A friend works for a bank with an overseas development arm. Allows projects to continue 24 hours a day with handoffs to the other side of the world. Foreign employees make <<50% of domestic but relative to median, foreign is way ahead of domestic.

 

[Relax]

There is a subtle difference between Software development and programming. Even though there is a huge offshore component to the work, it's not the same as far as the quality of things you get.

Any programmer sitting anywhere should be able to code out whatever you need as long as your requirements are very tight. But it's interpreting what some squishy management human type sitting in some office wants that needs to get translated to working solution. The key is to interpret that and get it wrong as soon as possible and that's just not easy with an offshore model.

As a software engineer, the bread and butter of your skill is mostly to interpret the right requirement to functional design/code, where programming is just solving a technical problem. Saying that, I hate offshore resources. 3/10 are excellent, but you waste your time with the 7/10 resources.

Here is the perfect pic of what it's like:

I have this in my cubicle. I'm pretty sure some of the captions are different, but basically it sums it up nicely. My job as an architect is to ensure that the all of the pictures look like the last one.

 

[Relax]

Thanks dude. Had to take a break from all social media: was absorbing too much garbage lol


I've mentored a few coops and juniors. They did not need dev training, only business requirements and, as mentioned above, guidance or shielding from clueless management requests. Those devs you spoke to, as blunt as this sounds, objectively suck as devs if they can't find a job.

To further @xfactor's comments: we outsourced to Ukraine for a mobile app. We have an extremely competent Russian mobile junior dev who just graduated. When we got the app back, the Russian taught me how much Russians hate Ukrainians lol. The code is complete ****, bug filled, and barely functional. However, we got 5 devs for $50k. 5 devs in house is $500k/year.

Poor Russian tho; he's gonna be swearing for a few more weeks everyday lol

I don't know anyone personally, it was in a bunch of articles I read. Granted, that was more than 5 years ago, but it left enough of an impression on me to dissuade friends and family from going into software engineering. I'm talking about fresh out of school, how do they compete with someone offshore that's either experienced or also fresh out of school with the exact same set of skills for half the price or less?

 

[Deleted member 50930]

I was under the impression that domestic software developers were an endangered species. I've heard lots of stories of students graduating and not being able to find work because they're competing with offshore developers working for a much lower wage/rate. But at some point, you do need domestic senior developers that you can "trust", and I'm not sure how they can develop into seniors if nobody's hiring and grooming them.

It's just very hard to get your foot in the door but once you have a few years of relevant work experience it is fine.

The demand for senior level developers and wages are through the roof

 

[油井緋色]

I don't know anyone personally, it was in a bunch of articles I read. Granted, that was more than 5 years ago, but it left enough of an impression on me to dissuade friends and family from going into software engineering. I'm talking about fresh out of school, how do they compete with someone offshore that's either experienced or also fresh out of school with the exact same set of skills for half the price or less?

The coops and juniors I've worked with or hired are unquestionably better than the overseas guys. The junior I mentioned above has 2x-3x the output of a single overseas dev. The general archetype is:

• Above average GPA
• Started playing video games at a young age
  • Last crazy good junior dev I met has a steam account as old as mine.....except I was 13 and he was 4 years old
• Modded/hacked game consoles at a young age
• Created/editted/modded game scripts, bots, whatever
• Has a GitHub with working projects if no previous job
• Is not socially awkward af

Only 1 of the of the above points has to do with school. The rest signal natural interest in computers/tinkering that started way before school. A common complaint I've heard from these juniors is the sudden influx of dispassionate students entering software development degrees for money; these types will likely lose to a dev who've spent a life time accidently developing software dev skills simply because 4 years cannot beat 15 years.

Many overseas developers are the "in it for the money" type. They suck as bad as the ones here. You can hire 1-3 fresh passionate grads and they will fix all that crap (while probably swearing.) Then the senior guys have multiple projects on fire and also delegate to juniors.

However, we cannot beat the price to speed ratio with getting fresh apps off the ground if budget is a concern and the company isn't disciplined in software development; FAANGs, for example, will out source but give very clear requirements. On the other end, traditional businesses that can't figure out how to reset passwords or what regedit does will absolutely **** themselves if they outsource because their requirements are muddy af <--- enter junior developers here with a senior mentoring/leading!

......also for the record, I am grossly underqualified as a senior full stack developer....go figure, still got that job/title and my inbox is flooded with recruiter spam lol so to @george__'s point, the demand is extremely high to the point where they will settle.

Also one more thing: communication barrier. I want to throw my head into a wall trying to decipher heavy accents when managing overseas dev projects.

 

[bigpoppa]

All I know is, my leetcode is 10" long and I get all the hoes.

 

[油井緋色]

All I know is, my leetcode is 10" long and I get all the hoes.

I have nightmares about leetcode lol

I was at my previous job for 5+ years, was the best in the company, and irreplaceable. This also meant my skills skyrocketed the wrong direction. Leetcode was great for prepping interviews but I still feel stupid af doing medium or harder questions <_<

.....then there's some kid, 10 years younger than me, solving hard questions in 10-20 minutes on livestreams :')