COVID and the housing market

[Deleted member 50930]

Canada’s Overheated Real Estate Market Threatens To Destabilize The Economy: RBC - Better Dwelling

Canada’s largest bank warned the country’s real estate markets are approaching systemic risk. Not credit risk, banks are more than adequately protected. Instead they see it as a risk for the whole darn economy. RBC senior economist Robert Hogue, who isn’t a traditional bear, warned the market is...

betterdwelling.com

 

[bigpoppa]

And requires you to be an f-n baller...

does it though? I imagine maintaining a winter residence amongst the locals isnt expensive, could probably buy a small dwelling for the price of a bmw

 

[Lightcycle]

My brother married a Canadian Panamanian lady and moved down there for a couple of years a decade ago, up in the mountains, not Panama City. He made a couple of mistakes.

1) He felt he couldn't afford to retire in Canada with the lifestyle he wanted. This was his fourth certified marriage with a common-law or two not on the records. His mistakes preceded his move to Panama.

2) He thought he could become a developer, coordinating jobs between the locals and the gringos. He was under financed and it's hard to start a business when your own life is financially underwater.

3) His in-laws lived a different culture. They were simple poor farmers.

When people are dirt poor they don't differentiate. If someone did something for you and you rewarded them by buying them a $1000 leather jacket they would use it while mucking out the stalls in the barn. It's a jacket, not a status symbol. The concept of designer shopping is foreign to them. His S-I-L was about to use his $200 German carving knife as a machete to open a can of beans.

They took down their nearly new Camry and relatives wanted to put goats in the back seat to take to market. Why not? They fit.

4) He was rustic in his language skills. If someone said something in Spanish and everyone laughed was it a joke or were they laughing at him? Innuendo is everything and it gets on the nerves.

5) Being curious I went onto an English Panamanian newspaper and looked at the want ads get an idea of what people bought and sold. Right at the top there was a warning: Fraud is the national sport in Panama. Buyer beware.

6) He was hiring locals to help build the house and they had simple needs. Some of them lived in houses without windows. Trim work was done by machete. If a door closed and kept large birds out it was good enough. The site was getting messy and he told the workers to clean it up while he went to town. When he got back the place was spotless. Everything had been thrown in the garbage including surplus lumber and many of the tools.

7) There was little violent crime where he was but petty crime was rampant. Windows were barred, yards fenced and gated.

8) On the plus side stuff is cheap from dining out to car repairs. A cleaning lady was $2 a day. A labourer was $2 and hour and a skilled trade $4 an hour. He had some body work done on his truck for 1/10th the price of here (Quality was good). Gourmet meals were priced like McDonalds here.

9) Like many places if you come in on a parade float you end up being treated like a clown. He did like to arrive set to impress.

10) There were meeting places where the gringos got together and away from the local culture, back to what they were used to. Fitting in with the locals may be a big step down in lifestyle expectations.

It isn't for everyone. He ended up back here and moved onto the next wife.

SIL stayed down there. I think she would prefer being here but that's a longer story about weird people and bad finances.

I didn't want to paint a picture that every gringo/farang/mzungu that moves down to Latin America (or Thailand or Zimbabwe or whatever) regretted their decision. Just a suggestion to emigrate for the right reasons and to have an educated and realistic picture of what you are immigrating to, as opposed to just being fixated on what you are running away from.

There is no place on Earth that is Eden. Every place has its pros and cons.

In our travels, we've met many, many successful ex-pats who've built-up a comfortable and rewarding life away from the country where they grew up. The common denominator is that they've all been willing to adapt; not only in learning a new language, but accepting a different way of thinking, speaking and acting without carrying over their pre-conceived notions and expectations of etiquette, manners of speech and all of the quirks of behaviour, nuances of body language, etc.

Most of the unsuccessful ex-pats/returnees have a "Grass is greener" attitude. They're hyper-focused on a single aspect of Western living that they absolutely detest (ie. Cost of living, nanny-state rules, etc). Then after the move, they've realized they've traded in a single issue for a much larger and untenable set of problems, like petty crime, pollution, sanitation, health standards, bureaucracy and corruption.

Sure, most of these things can be solved by throwing money at it. But at a certain point, you realize that you've spent as much money, if not more, fashioning a Western bubble around you, than you would have if you had just stayed home in the first place.

The people we've met who have emigrated with success can articulate all the things they like about their new home and culture. All the reasons they continue to stay as opposed to moving back to the familiar and comfortable.

We fell in with a bunch of ex-pats in Japan and they all tell us, "Sure, we gaijin are treated like second-class citizens here. We don't completely understand all the nuances of Japanese languages and culture. We will never be accepted and completely integrated into Japanese society. The work hours are brutal and the expectations are high. The pay is poor and the cost of living is astronomical. *BUT* there is a mentality, a focus on the needs of the society above the needs of the individual that resonates with my own personal philosophy. *THAT* is why I love Japan and that is why I continue to stay."

Always better to run towards something as opposed to away from something.

 

[Deleted member 50930]

https://imgur.com/a/l7jmC2p

 

[Lightcycle]

does it though? I imagine maintaining a winter residence amongst the locals isnt expensive, could probably buy a small dwelling for the price of a bmw

For sure.

Will you be happy living in a shack surrounded by locals who don't speak English though? That's the more important question.

 

[GreyGhost]

https://imgur.com/a/l7jmC2p

Dig a little more and I suspect you will find that doesn't own the land. Most mobiles don't. The land is where the money is.

Yup, land lease. Not a good investment. Rent. You pay $2000 a year in property tax and $7800 in rent for the landlord to cash out in the future and make all the money while you are literally left with nothing. Who wants an old trailer than they need to pay thousands to move? You'd be very lucky to get $2500 for it, yet alone $250,000. It gets even worse when you look at the future value of 250K now.

 

[Deleted member 50930]

Dig a little more and I suspect you will find that doesn't own the land. Most mobiles don't. The land is where the money is.

Ya it's $250k for just that shack!

Ad says, "Monthly Total Cost (Lease, Taxes, Water) Is $649.17"

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North, ON, Mfd/Mobile Home For Sale

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North Mfd/Mobile Home for sale (MLS® X5143510). Check out property details, home price, nearby schools and neighbourhood information.

www.rew.ca

Why would someone do this ...

 

[Lightcycle]

Ya it's $250k for just that shack!

Ad says, "Monthly Total Cost (Lease, Taxes, Water) Is $649.17"

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North, ON, Mfd/Mobile Home For Sale

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North Mfd/Mobile Home for sale (MLS® X5143510). Check out property details, home price, nearby schools and neighbourhood information.

www.rew.ca

Why would someone do this ...

There are some benefits to leasehold.

Cheaper than owning, and you get more rights to make modifications to the property for the duration of the lease than you would if you rented.

 

[GreyGhost]

Ya it's $250k for just that shack!

Ad says, "Monthly Total Cost (Lease, Taxes, Water) Is $649.17"

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North, ON, Mfd/Mobile Home For Sale

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North Mfd/Mobile Home for sale (MLS® X5143510). Check out property details, home price, nearby schools and neighbourhood information.

www.rew.ca

Why would someone do this ...

Stability in retirement? You don't have to worry about the landlord screwing you or kicking you out. I assume it is a long-term lease so you put your money in and have reasonably fixed costs until you die.

Some relatives have similar but nicer places in Prince Edward County. Walk away and lock the door like a condo, community center with pool etc. Fits their lifestyle. They have a similar property in Florida and split the year.

 

[nobbie48]

I'm strongly considering this at 33 years old without cashing out on anything, mainly due to the cost of housing and raising a family in the GTA. I moved to Canada on my own at 18 - got a university education, professional career and had a dream to eventually settle down for good and start a family. But seeing how things are these days, it's more attractive to move back - country of origin has better government in my opinion, more proactive in providing affordable housing to its citizens, good wages and job opportunities, cost of living is much lower and most of the family is there. The more time passes, the more it seems to be a no brainer.

It's financially understandable but have you paid for the full cost of your education? While legal, is it ethical? Sorry but if I was in charge you would have to bring a cheque if you ever wanted back in. Your birth country would have a lien put on it for any unpaid education costs. Any CPP amounts collected from you would go towards your education debts.

If enough people work the system, the system fails and the doors are slammed shut. That also goes for born here professionals that move to the USA for bigger bucks.

Sorry for the venting but where the hell are the true Canadians that want to make Canada a better place instead of milking it dry and deserting when they see greener grass? IMO it's little different from marrying for money and bailing once assets can be grabbed. Then screw the next sucker.

We often complain about how crappy the world is becoming. Then we do crappy things and don't see the connection.

The attitude has always been around but now it's going mainstream. Massive capital gains going untaxed, manipulation of markets, speculation is rewarded more than innovation. Flip a couple of houses using your kids names and make a million or two. Spend a million on a new invention, it gets copied, you get screwed and what does the government do for you? Squat, fight your own battles.

Go to a brick and mortar store, pick the owners brains and then buy online. Then complain about service, selection and quality.

The brick and mortar retaliate by going ape on pricing with 200% markups.

If you stay until retirement and want to return to your birth country it's fine with me for two months a year. Then your CPP and OAS gets reduced by 10% a month for any extra months.

Rant over for now.

 

[Lightcycle]

Sorry for the venting but where the hell are the true Canadians that want to make Canada a better place instead of milking it dry and deserting when they see greener grass?

This. Thank you.

There are worse places in the world to live in than Canada.

By far.

 

[nobbie48]

Dig a little more and I suspect you will find that doesn't own the land. Most mobiles don't. The land is where the money is.

Yup, land lease. Not a good investment. Rent. You pay $2000 a year in property tax and $7800 in rent for the landlord to cash out in the future and make all the money while you are literally left with nothing. Who wants an old trailer than they need to pay thousands to move? You'd be very lucky to get $2500 for it, yet alone $250,000. It gets even worse when you look at the future value of 250K now.

If you had the $250 K in cash you would lose the investment possibilities from the amount, a few percent. The structure would depreciate a few percent a year as well. Add those to the land lease and the price goes up. If a deal comes up for what you really want, your money is tied up unlike a bond or stocks that get you cash in a day or two.

My home town, Brandon Manitoba has a trailer park at the southern end of town and it abuts a main street. The adjacent strip mall is buying part of the park to expand the stores and the trailers on that part have to move out. They've been there so long they will collapse if anyone tries to move them. The owners may get a few bucks in compensation for the move but not enough to buy a new trailer.

A trailer park in Mississauga is being taken over by Peel Housing and will be redeveloped. Long term owners will get first dibs but new comers will not do as well.

 

[jc100]

This. Thank you.

There are worse places in the world to live in than Canada.

By far.

I tell my students to get out and travel as much as you can, study in different countries, integrate a little and get out of your comfort zone. Then think about just how great Canada is when you get back. You only really appreciate everything we take for granted here once you’ve seen other societies.

Having said that.....I don’t like the winters anymore. I need a winter bolt hole in Central America.

 

[bigpoppa]

I wonder if people who already live in cool places (brazilians, Italians etc) ever say lets go vacation in canada!

 

[Lightcycle]

I tell my students to get out and travel as much as you can, study in different countries, integrate a little and get out of your comfort zone. Then think about just how great Canada is when you get back. You only really appreciate everything we take for granted here once you’ve seen other societies.

Reading some of the posts on here disparaging Canada, it sounds like something I would have written myself 20-25 years ago.

I remember being young and feeling like the world (and the country I lived in) owed me something.

At the time, I was told I was being groomed for a position at Corporate HQ in the US. I was like, "Foch yeah, getting paid in Canadian pesos and taxed to death for services I don't even use sux balls. Gimme somma dat that Greenback action!"

I watched all my friends leave the motherland for "greener pastures", furthering their career in UAE, US, Singapore, London, etc.

Then the stories came back of how life away from Canada wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. Sure, they had money falling out of their a$$es, but it turns out, money isn't everything. Quality of life and security in all things mattered much more.

When the position in the US was offered to me, I turned it down and stayed in Canada. Became quite the pariah in the company because of that.

Almost immediately, the DotCom bubble burst and the company fired 33% of its work force in the US. Being a foreign national, I would have lost my job for sure. Many of my friends abroad had to return home due to mass layoffs.

Because of Canada's socialist and protective employment laws, I kept my job.

Over the years, I've seen time and time again the benefits of living in a country that although fails to capitalize on its natural resources and the human capital it has within its borders, *ALWAYS* errs on the side of taking care of its citizens. Even if they don't know it or appreciate it.

Many years later, I've come to realize my country doesn't owe me anything.

In fact, it's the other way around.

 

[abkdt41]

In fact, it's the other way around.

I have also seen this happen, people making lots of money but unhappy as they have no rights or say

but how much longer can Canada sustain this environment - it seems like everyone just wants to leech off all the benefits and run away as soon as they find something better

 

[mimico_polak]

I have also seen this happen, people making lots of money but unhappy as they have no rights or say

but how much longer can Canada sustain this environment - it seems like everyone just wants to leech off all the benefits and run away as soon as they find something better

How exactly are they leeching off the benefits?

The problem is that retirement is now being called ‘entitlement’....no...it’s money that I’ve been paying in since 1995 without taking a single unemployment cheque, benefit, or the like. I’ve not applied to CERB (could have), didn’t apply for the $200 child credit (could have) and have yet to take a dollar out (except a surgery here or there).

I’m curious how you feel it’s leeching? Sure there are people who go on EI and keep working cash. Took the CERB and kept working under the table, but I don’t think it’s the norm.

 

[BB722]

places that are expensive are usually that for a good reason, it's like right now there is supposedly many Californians moving to cheaper states but what states really hold a candle to Cali?

 

[Kawyman]

Ya it's $250k for just that shack!

Ad says, "Monthly Total Cost (Lease, Taxes, Water) Is $649.17"

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North, ON, Mfd/Mobile Home For Sale

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North Mfd/Mobile Home for sale (MLS® X5143510). Check out property details, home price, nearby schools and neighbourhood information.

www.rew.ca

Why would someone do this ...

You pay prop tax, water bills on non leased places.
Add

Ya it's $250k for just that shack!

Ad says, "Monthly Total Cost (Lease, Taxes, Water) Is $649.17"

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North, ON, Mfd/Mobile Home For Sale

103 Sixth Avenue, Wellington North Mfd/Mobile Home for sale (MLS® X5143510). Check out property details, home price, nearby schools and neighbourhood information.

www.rew.ca

Why would someone do this ...

if you bought in there 5 years ago.. you’d be happy with the money you’d be making selling.. unless it’s a complete dump and damaged trailer. I’ve never seen the price for those places go down. May not make the big gains like a house, but valve keeps going up. My buddy lives there and he got in when his place (royal home) not a trailer when it was cheap

There’s some factory built ( quality homes/ royal homes) in that park and I think they use too start at around $150,000. Only 7-8yrs ago. Bet the sell for over $300,000 now.

you pay prop tax’s and water in town.. looking at the lease hold it’s only about $2300 more a year then what I pay

 

[bigpoppa]

How exactly are they leeching off the benefits?

The problem is that retirement is now being called ‘entitlement’....no...it’s money that I’ve been paying in since 1995 without taking a single unemployment cheque, benefit, or the like. I’ve not applied to CERB (could have), didn’t apply for the $200 child credit (could have) and have yet to take a dollar out (except a surgery here or there).

I’m curious how you feel it’s leeching? Sure there are people who go on EI and keep working cash. Took the CERB and kept working under the table, but I don’t think it’s the norm.

I think he just read the previous posts and assumed there's a mass exodus or something.
Most people who come here contribute SIGNIFICANTLY more than they take, this is why you dont see a lot of old people getting off Pearson and why to immigrate to canada you have to go through every test/check but the cavity check.

I can def see why some young people want to leave though, either to go back to the old country or seek greener pastures elsewhere.
Its increasingly difficult for young people to get ahead or start a life, if they can find success elsewhere, why stay?
buona fortuna I say

As for money is not everything, I am reminded of the great literary scholar YE:
"Having money's not everything, not having it is"