COVID and the housing market

GreyGhost said:
Toronto still seems to be neighbourhood dependent. Rosedale is really low (~13k for a 4M house). They should be close to double that. Ideally, politicians would spend half as that's crazy but they are incapable of restraint (see cops already spending millions on preparation for world cup dumpster fire).
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I don't like property taxes to be linked to property value. It costs $30 a day to park a car whether it's a Chevy or Cadillac. The city should be reimbursed for what it costs them to service the property and it doesn't cost them more if you have a granite kitchen.

Similarly you can reduce your taxes by turning your neighbourhood into a slum that costs more to maintain.

Social services, school, welfare, recreation etc could be taxed separately as they are more subjective. It's more complex but has less slush fund potential.
 
The current Toronto MIL rate is 0.715289% (all in). In theory a $4M home "should" be paying... 28K in tax but... in theory it is a simple system (MPAC X MIL) but in practice:

One issue is the MPAC assessments are way out of date (and are about half or less in general but have a range). I do find if you flip through sold listings across the city (based on selling price) property tax/price generally gives a range of 0.30% to 0.35% (BTW Rosedale $4M paying 13K is 0.325%, smack in the middle!). As noted, this suggests the MPAC value is less than 50% of the current market property value--in general. So that $4M home paying 13K in taxes mathematically has an MPAC assessment of around $1.8M.

The ones that fall outside of this range tend to be a very recent major reno/flip (teardown small house, built a giant one, sell imediately) where the listed taxes relfect the old house not the new giant house yet. In contrast a major reno that is a few years old (or a new build) where they do reflect the change (this last one the MPAC value has been "updated" and is now more than half of actual market value, but still not 100%--permits initiate the change). Finally some neighbourhoods where the property values (by percentage not dollars) increased at a faster or slower rate--but this did not seem to be as common as people would think.

Now if they updated all the MPAC assessments to current market prices the taxes paid will not double, the MIL rate will drop to somewhere around half all due to the above but better balance is acheived fancy pants vs regualr joes, that $4M house still does not end up at 28K, but maybe 15K as the new MIL is lower.
 
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nobbie48 said:
I don't like property taxes to be linked to property value. It costs $30 a day to park a car whether it's a Chevy or Cadillac. The city should be reimbursed for what it costs them to service the property and it doesn't cost them more if you have a granite kitchen.

Similarly you can reduce your taxes by turning your neighbourhood into a slum that costs more to maintain.

Social services, school, welfare, recreation etc could be taxed separately as they are more subjective. It's more complex but has less slush fund potential.
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That's not an unreasonable approach but if you go that way, the cheapest dwellings will increase a bunch and the expensive ones will go down substantially. If you have a bridal path house with private garbage collection and you are never in the city, should you pay less than Nobbie who has local parks, municipal garbage collection and six people living in their house with all using roads or transit every day?
 
backmarkerducati said:
One issue is the MPAC assessments are way out of date
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Hamilton operates similarly. Our official assessment is probably closer to 1/3rd of true value, which ultimately renders the tax rate meaningless. When we lived in BC, the assessments are provincial, and significantly more accurate, as they use equivalent sold values to help set the number. Accurate enough that many use them as a benchmark for sales, and selling for above or below assessed value is a marker for success, depending on whether you're buying or selling...
 
Sorry Priller. Some parts of Hamilton are nice.

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GreyGhost said:
Sorry Priller. Some parts of Hamilton are nice.

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Hey, at least half of the new arrivals in our neighbourhood are happily ex-Toronto. Spent a lot of years living there, grew up there. Sister and parents still live there. Wouldn't move there if you paid me. Still better than the suburban wasteland of most Canadian cities, though. Boston Pizza at the nearest big box intersection parking lot isn't my idea of a Saturday night.

Oh, and a local shop does a bang up business selling these shirts:

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Priller said:
Hey, at least half of the new arrivals in our neighbourhood are happily ex-Toronto. Spent a lot of years living there, grew up there. Sister and parents still live there. Wouldn't move there if you paid me. Still better than the suburban wasteland of most Canadian cities, though. Boston Pizza at the nearest big box intersection parking lot isn't my idea of a Saturday night.

Oh, and a local shop does a bang up business selling these shirts:

View attachment 68160
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When our daughter was little we did more Hamilton day trips than Toronto. Less crowding and less attitude.

Now she lives there near Gage Park and loves it.

Big boxes are moving in but it's still possible for indies to open restaurants. The Harbour Diner and Memphis Fire are affordable treats.

How many waterfalls does Toronto have?

I don't think they have a zoo. They just tell you to go to Toronto.
 
GreyGhost said:
That's not an unreasonable approach but if you go that way, the cheapest dwellings will increase a bunch and the expensive ones will go down substantially. If you have a bridal path house with private garbage collection and you are never in the city, should you pay less than Nobbie who has local parks, municipal garbage collection and six people living in their house with all using roads or transit every day?
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If the land was taxed at $0.25 a square foot and the house at $3.00 / SF a 1200 SF Bungalow on a 50' X 100" lot would be $1250 for the lot and $3600 for the building = $4850/ year

Bridal Path would be a 20,000 SF lot with a 5,000 SF house so $5000 for the lot and $15,000 for the house = $20,000.

If you topped the bungalow taxes would go up to $8450 / year

The last time I saw garbage collection in the Bridal path it was city but the owners didn't have to put the cans at the curb. They got top of the driveway service and if something was missed a special truck would soon correct the matter.

Parks and recreation ideally (But impractically) would be a poll tax. Think of the foreign student housing windfalls.
 
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nobbie48 said:
When our daughter was little we did more Hamilton day trips than Toronto. Less crowding and less attitude.

I don't think they have a zoo. They just tell you to go to Toronto.
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They have a zoo , they all live in tents just off main & king intersection.

I like the hammer , great restaurants at Hamilton not Toronto prices . Aberdeen tavern , the French , harbour Diner , lots . Two Cougars and a Cafe for breakfast .




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nobbie48 said:
If the land was taxed at $0.25 a square foot and the house at $3.00 / SF a 1200 SF Bungalow on a 50' X 100" lot would be $1250 for the lot and $3600 for the building = $4850/ year

Bridal Path would be a 20,000 SF lot with a 5,000 SF house so $5000 for the lot and $15,000 for the house = $20,000.

If you topped the bungalow taxes would go up to $8450 / year

The last time I saw garbage collection in the Bridal path it was city but the owners didn't have to put the cans at the curb. They got top of the driveway service and if something was missed a special truck would soon correct the matter.

Parks and recreation ideally (But impractically) would be a poll tax. Think of the foreign student housing windfalls.
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If you are taxing land and dwelling per sq ft, that isn't vastly different than the current system of taxing based on value. It eliminates the potential granite countertop surcharge but that should be miniscule. Dwelling value is almost entirely based on size and land.

Toronto budget is about 22B/year. 17B operating and 5B capital. Property tax makes up just over 30% or revenue. There are 1.25M residential dwellings in Toronto. Toronto collects 4.9B in property tax. Assuming it was all paid by residential (big flaw in argument but I can't quickly find a breakdown by asset class), that would only be $3900 per dwelling average. Much lower than I expected. Also that partially explains big percentage increase in property tax as that only makes a 3% increase in total revenue.
 
nobbie48 said:
When our daughter was little we did more Hamilton day trips than Toronto. Less crowding and less attitude.
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We were the same when I was a kid. Had cousins in Hamilton, and the grandfolks lived in Niagara-on-the-Lake, so pretty much every weekend was heading west around the lake, sometimes for 40 minutes driving sometimes an hour and a half.

nobbie48 said:
Now she lives there near Gage Park and loves it.
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We're in the same spot. Also love it. Real sense of community, and everyone watching out for each other. Mix of Old Ham and New Ham, as they say. Most of the houses in our neighbourhood was built between 1910 and 1925, so plenty of brick four squares with a few craftsman/arts and crafts beauties mixed in, and a whole street of mock Tudor backing onto the park. Admiring the variety of architecture is one of my favourite things while walking the dogs. Relatively big front lawns and porches, too. When we moved in, my dad commented that it was a front porch neighbourhood rather than a backyard neighbourhood, and the old Italian next-door neighbour winked and said, "I trained them all well..."

crankcall said:
I like the hammer , great restaurants at Hamilton not Toronto prices . Aberdeen tavern , the French , harbour Diner , lots . Two Cougars and a Cafe for breakfast .
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Also highly recommended: Rapscallion, Bernie's Tavern, Born and Raised, Le Tambour and The Ship, for varying price levels of restaurants; Motel and Gage Park Diner for breakfast; and Castelli Mercato in Ancaster for incredible takeaway sandwiches and pizza al taglio. Nardini is technically in Stoney Creek, but they also do an amazing veal sandwich at their hot counter. Oh, and Grandad's Donuts near RHYC for classic old-school fried dough options.

(My only complaint, food-wise, is there's no Neapolitan pizza here. None. Guelph is overflowing with the stuff, but for ages here the only option was Pi Co. in the Lime Ridge Mall, and even they've gone out of business. You'd think with so many wops still kicking around, and with so many of their families from Naples, somebody would do a solid Margherita. Instead it either too-thick grease discs with carpenter's glue standing in for cheese, or overpriced 'artisinal' pizza from places like MaiPai, Caffe Baffico, or Cowabunga.)
 
Priller said:
Also highly recommended: Rapscallion, Bernie's Tavern, Born and Raised, Le Tambour and The Ship, for varying price levels of restaurants; Motel and Gage Park Diner for breakfast; and Castelli Mercato in Ancaster for incredible takeaway sandwiches and pizza al taglio. Nardini is technically in Stoney Creek, but they also do an amazing veal sandwich at their hot counter. Oh, and Grandad's Donuts near RHYC for classic old-school fried dough options.

(My only complaint, food-wise, is there's no Neapolitan pizza here. None. Guelph is overflowing with the stuff, but for ages here the only option was Pi Co. in the Lime Ridge Mall, and even they've gone out of business. You'd think with so many wops still kicking around, and with so many of their families from Naples, somebody would do a solid Margherita. Instead it either too-thick grease discs with carpenter's glue standing in for cheese, or overpriced 'artisinal' pizza from places like MaiPai, Caffe Baffico, or Cowabunga.)
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Not to turn this into a food thread but love love love Castelli Mercato pizza. Stop in as often as I can. Also if you like Mexican, "The Mule" beside The French is awesome. Tony G's pizza and Shorty's are also pretty good. Great food options in Hamilton.
 
More sob stories about people getting caught up in the rage and now reality kicking in. Although the first guy appears to be living large where at 66 you’ve still got a 30 year mortgage. Good luck selling…

toronto.ctvnews.ca

Ontario man considers selling house before mortgage payments rise $2,000, even after interest rate cut

An Ontario man says he’s still considering selling his house, despite this week’s interest rate cut, with his mortgage payments set to leap over $2,000 next month.
toronto.ctvnews.ca toronto.ctvnews.ca
 
mimico_polak said:
More sob stories about people getting caught up in the rage and now reality kicking in. Although the first guy appears to be living large where at 66 you’ve still got a 30 year mortgage. Good luck selling…

toronto.ctvnews.ca

Ontario man considers selling house before mortgage payments rise $2,000, even after interest rate cut

An Ontario man says he’s still considering selling his house, despite this week’s interest rate cut, with his mortgage payments set to leap over $2,000 next month.
toronto.ctvnews.ca toronto.ctvnews.ca
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What???

If that's the guy's house it isn't hugely different from yours (MP) so what sort of equity did the guy have in the place at 66 YO? His place would be substantially less expensive than yours.

A move to Woodstock would give him a house with a lower price but if he has low equity, the sales and moving costs will have a big effect on what he will have for a new down payment.

Is he expecting interest rates to drop to stupid low again?

Some people need smelling salts.
 
nobbie48 said:
What???

If that's the guy's house it isn't hugely different from yours (MP) so what sort of equity did the guy have in the place at 66 YO? His place would be substantially less expensive than yours.

A move to Woodstock would give him a house with a lower price but if he has low equity, the sales and moving costs will have a big effect on what he will have for a new down payment.

Is he expecting interest rates to drop to stupid low again?

Some people need smelling salts.
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That’s a unresearched CTV article written by a jr reporter.

Hannah Alberga, look at her body of work, she’s assigned to the tabloid and click bait stuff - no facts required.

​

 
mimico_polak said:
This is fine....

www.thestar.com

‘A shocking number:’ Total mortgage balance reaching ‘severe delinquency’ exceeds $1 billion for the first time in Ontario

More than 1.26 million consumers missed at least one payment on some form of credit commitment — the highest number since 2020 — in the first quarter, according to Equifax.
www.thestar.com www.thestar.com

Double the rate of pre-COVID for delinquencies...everything is A-OK.
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Bleeping crap reporting yet again. The value 90 days past due is double but what's the rate? They never broight that comparison into the article. House prices are far higher so of course value of delinquent accounts is higher.
 
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