COVID and the housing market | Page 239 | GTAMotorcycle.com

COVID and the housing market

And another development bites the dust. But this time they're threatening to hold the deposits unless buyers agree to not sue....and they're blaming the buyers for being in default BEFORE the places are built.

So the builder bought the land in 2018, took deposits on the order of 7M (150k x 45), held them for four years, returned the deposits plus interest (about 8.5 back) and sold the property for 38M. With a little trickery at the beginning, this builder may have turned almost no money into 15M in four years without building anything.
 
IMO take the money and move on. The developer will screw the buyers for years as the buyers pour money into legal fees. the developer has 30+ million for their legal fees.The deck is stacked against the buyers.
 
It already is. Many people that bought in early 2022 are walking away from their deposits. When they lose the ensuing lawsuit they may realize how dumb that decision was. If it was a first time buyer, they may get away with it as there isn't much to win in the lawsuit. Step up buyers could easily lose all the equity they have in their current house by being *****.

EDIT:
The simple solution to the above is to close on the property you agreed to buy at the price you agreed to pay. If you screwed up, that's your problem. Sell your car, cash out investments, do what it takes to make the deal close. If the market price has gone down, you are losing that delta anyway but one way you end up with a house you paid over market for, the other way you end up with no house and no money.

I'm guessing 20% deposit on, for example, a $1 Million dollar home. Walk away and lose $200,000 but there is speculation that prices may drop 20% soon so the buyer theoretically ends up on par. However if the developer only gets $700,000 clear (After padded costs) from the house he can go after the $100,000 in court and if he gets a judgement that never goes way except by bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy can live forever in one form or another.

I agree with taking the hit and moving on with life if at all possible. Yeah it sucks.
 
I'm guessing 20% deposit on, for example, a $1 Million dollar home. Walk away and lose $200,000 but there is speculation that prices may drop 20% soon so the buyer theoretically ends up on par. However if the developer only gets $700,000 clear (After padded costs) from the house he can go after the $100,000 in court and if he gets a judgement that never goes way except by bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy can live forever in one form or another.

I agree with taking the hit and moving on with life if at all possible. Yeah it sucks.
Deposits are very rarely 20% (maybe never?). Something like 5% or less is typical.
 
Deposits are very rarely 20% (maybe never?). Something like 5% or less is typical.
I’d be insane to lose 200k deposit on a house I didn’t end up buying. 30-50k sure I’ll bite…200k? You can GFY Mr Seller.

I’d rather eat the immediate loss on the house.
 
Deposits are very rarely 20% (maybe never?). Something like 5% or less is typical.

I pulled the number of a random sales pitch.

So on the $1M home the deposit is $50K and the buyer walks away as prices elsewhere drop to $800K. He's ahead $150K until the developer goes to court for the loss of profit (Padded) and the back-out buyer gets sued for well over $150K.

There is a very good chance the buyer will lose in court and have to pay legal fees on top.

The ugly part of this is that if prices continued to soar it would be the developer wanting to break the deal and likely could through the fine print, service delays, financing issues, technical issues etc. All of those can be created.
 
I pulled the number of a random sales pitch.

So on the $1M home the deposit is $50K and the buyer walks away as prices elsewhere drop to $800K. He's ahead $150K until the developer goes to court for the loss of profit (Padded) and the back-out buyer gets sued for well over $150K.

There is a very good chance the buyer will lose in court and have to pay legal fees on top.

The ugly part of this is that if prices continued to soar it would be the developer wanting to break the deal and likely could through the fine print, service delays, financing issues, technical issues etc. All of those can be created.
This happens on resales not just with new dwellings. Lots of recent examples of buyers walking away and house selling for hundreds of thousands less. Pretty easy court case. Buyer agreed to pay x and failed to complete the transaction. New buyer was found and agreed to pay y and the deal closed. Sue the buyer for x-y and win. You have a documented loss, seller did what they could to mitigate damages (relisted quickly, kept maintaining property, etc). Buyer doesnt have many good arguments. Buyer will try to argue that the appraisal came in lower and the bank wouldnt advance enough money but the buyer signed a contract without those conditions in it. Buyers real estate agent will probably sue and win for their commission too as most engagement contracts draw the finish line at an accepted offer. Deal doesnt have to close for them to collect their percentage.
 
This happens on resales not just with new dwellings. Lots of recent examples of buyers walking away and house selling for hundreds of thousands less. Pretty easy court case. Buyer agreed to pay x and failed to complete the transaction. New buyer was found and agreed to pay y and the deal closed. Sue the buyer for x-y and win. You have a documented loss, seller did what they could to mitigate damages (relisted quickly, kept maintaining property, etc). Buyer doesnt have many good arguments. Buyer will try to argue that the appraisal came in lower and the bank wouldnt advance enough money but the buyer signed a contract without those conditions in it. Buyers real estate agent will probably sue and win for their commission too as most engagement contracts draw the finish line at an accepted offer. Deal doesnt have to close for them to collect their percentage.
The sanctity of a contract. Some people can't see that breaking a contract can go two ways. What if there was a sudden price surge after the deal was made and the seller decided to cancel and go for a higher price?

Hmmmm. Isn't that what the developers do?

On a resale, the contract isn't as likely to have the loopholes. The building is complete so no one can blame permit or service issues, supply chain etc.
 
Saw that. Very misleading title. Should be "most expensive shed in gta sells for 45,000". It has three benches in it, no plumbing, on commercially zoned lot (to be rented at $500/mo). Plumbing alone will kill this idea. She has publicized her plan and needs a building permit for the plumbing/sewer hookup. I highly doubt they will grant that permit.
 
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Saw that. Very misleading title. Should be "most expensive shed in gta sells for 45,000". It has three benches in it, no plumbing, on commercially zoned lot (to be rented at $500/mo). Plumbing alone will kill this idea. She has publicized her plan and needs a building permit for the plumbing/sewer hookup. I highly doubt they will grant that permit.

Basically a trailer park for one. Next will be container homes. I don't think so.
 
Wow idiot wtf. That was the biggest waste of money she would have been better buying a camper at least you could live in it.

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A camper also comes with a shitter and you can move it easily. This thing will require an expensive relocation with specialized transport. I dont even know where she can put it legally. Very few places let you live year round in a trailer. For those that do allow year round in a trailer, they may not allow the caboose.
 
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Deposits are very rarely 20% (maybe never?). Something like 5% or less is typical.
AFAIK pre-cons are closer to 20% than 5%.
my last 3 pre-cons were right around 15% deposit, spread over the first year.
 
AFAIK pre-cons are closer to 20% than 5%.
my last 3 pre-cons were right around 15% deposit, spread over the first year.
I was mainly referring to resale. I've never been involved with pre-cons but your numbers seem reasonable.

Most buyers wont walk away from 15 or 20%. That is a pile of coin and at this point, far larger than any price correction that has happened. Pre-con is also a year or two out so people closing shortly bought when prices were much lower.
 
I was wondering how much a developer would pay for High Park.

There has been talk of allowing the consupmtion of alcohol in parks but in the case of High Park, John Howard gave the land to the city with a few conditions, one being that alcohol consumption not being permitted. If the conditions were broken the land reverts to his heirs.

400 acres at several million an acre would make it the world's most expensive wine bar.
 
Re paying for a cottage by renting , I think they will always rent , you may not get the 4,000 a week since not going to Europe crowd , by you’ll get 2k . As lots of holiday renters just cant go overseas , I think the “good fishin lake” and nice view is a solid investment.


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I was wondering how much a developer would pay for High Park.

There has been talk of allowing the consupmtion of alcohol in parks but in the case of High Park, John Howard gave the land to the city with a few conditions, one being that alcohol consumption not being permitted. If the conditions were broken the land reverts to his heirs.

400 acres at several million an acre would make it the world's most expensive wine bar.
Easy answer to that. Do not permit alcohol consumption but don't enforce a ban. Reverting to heirs is interesting. It just keeps getting diluted and it can be complicated to consider who is in or out unless it was clearly spelled out (adopted kids, ex-spouses, how do you deal with kids with parents alive, etc). There are probably many thousands of heirs unless they made a very narrow definition (eg oldest surviving male with howard bloodline is the heir).

High park would be far more than several million an acre. That's Mississauga prices with smaller parcels. I suspect high park would be 5 or more an acre (more at the south, probably still some protected areas throughout so far higher per developable acre).
 
Re paying for a cottage by renting , I think they will always rent , you may not get the 4,000 a week since not going to Europe crowd , by you’ll get 2k . As lots of holiday renters just cant go overseas , I think the “good fishin lake” and nice view is a solid investment.


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Cottage prices went nuts as well. Are they seeing a decline in price?
 
Easy answer to that. Do not permit alcohol consumption but don't enforce a ban. Reverting to heirs is interesting. It just keeps getting diluted and it can be complicated to consider who is in or out unless it was clearly spelled out (adopted kids, ex-spouses, how do you deal with kids with parents alive, etc). There are probably many thousands of heirs unless they made a very narrow definition (eg oldest surviving male with howard bloodline is the heir).

High park would be far more than several million an acre. That's Mississauga prices with smaller parcels. I suspect high park would be 5 or more an acre (more at the south, probably still some protected areas throughout so far higher per developable acre).

A quick search indicated Mrs. Howard didn't have any children but Mr. Howard had three. I guess his moral limits had limits.
 

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